Argentina's Problems

steveinbsas

Registered
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
9,789
Likes
5,825
Amargo said:
Value creation is a big lie of capitalism (I am not a communist!). ALL industrialised countries profited/profit from their own resources first (if they had any) and then of those of poorer countries. There is one Earth, there are limited resources, probably the only one exception -more or less- being the energy we get from the Sun.
Coming from rich countries we are just too spoiled and believe it is our right to buy whatever we want. But we don't pay nearly as much as needed for our goods, which is a shame.

At least your grammar is good...though I spell industrialsed with a z.

If "we" pay "market price" for anything, who are you to say that "we don't pay nearly as much as needed for our goods?"

I really would like to see everyone in the world pay less for oil (and all of the products that we depend on to be made and/or delivered). But that will only happen when the US and other industrialized countries (including Argentina) stops paying more than it needs to to "poorer" countries (is Saudi Arabia poor?) and flood the market with domestically produced oil.

Thanks to Obama and the Fed, the whole world is paying more than they need to already for almost everything, as they have increased the supply of dollars to enable the wild spending spree (Bush borrowed and spent too much as well). Candidate Obama pledged to lower the federal debt by 50% but President Obama has incleased it by 50%. The dollar would probebly be worth much more against the peso today if not for these factors.

At least canned food (corn, for example) is still cheap in the US (compared to Argentina).

http://www.jewelosco.com/savings/viewcircular?promotionId=76630
 

jontyjago

Registered
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Messages
65
Likes
34
though I spell industrialsed with a z

Your point? Amargo & I spell it perfectly correctly with an 's' - it's standard UK usage.
 

nicoenarg

Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2012
Messages
1,778
Likes
1,488
Amargo said:
Value creation is a big lie of capitalism (I am not a communist!). ALL industrialised countries profited/profit from their own resources first (if they had any) and then of those of poorer countries. There is one Earth, there are limited resources, probably the only one exception -more or less- being the energy we get from the Sun.
Coming from rich countries we are just too spoiled and believe it is our right to buy whatever we want. But we don't pay nearly as much as needed for our goods, which is a shame.

One of the biggest lies I have ever heard/read is that "richer nations of the West got rich off of poor countries' resources." Its true that the British Empire (an example) took resources from its colonies but none can prove that the whole Western world got rich because of colonialism. Its funny how this claim is touted all over the freakin' place, especially by people who know next to nothing about economics.

This lie is, to me, exactly the same as the lie that promotes the idea that white people are somehow responsible for slavery (yet no one gives a rat's ass that it was the blacks in Africa who were selling their own people (and white slaves) to Arabs and amongst each other, long before white man even knew about black slavery (oh, and I am not white!).

Anyway, the OP's post is right on about why the Argentine society is the way it is. And also why the West is the way it is. People's respect for each other and others' innovations is something that is not found in the undeveloped world. I have lived all my life in undeveloped countries (underdeveloped sounds too politically correct to me and is an idiotic term), far from innovation, I have heard people say, "Oh, why doesn't Bill Gates give me just a million dollars from his stash? He doesn't need all that money!" and my reaction, "AYFKM!!?" (This was in Saudi Arabia, if anyone's wondering. In Riyadh, to be precise. Also Emiratis in Dubai have the same attitude).

Another thing that I think became a huge problem for people in Argentina was and is the worship of the Peron family. It was J. Peron who, being an admirer of Mussolini, destroyed individualism in Argentina and replaced that with "We are all Argentina!". Of course, its not just Peron who should be blamed for that, since the people happily complied.

This country is on a downward spiral and there isn't much people here can do about it because yeah the politicians are corrupt, but people don't give a flying rat's ass as long as they get their subsidies and their soccer/futbol/football games and as long as their politicians keep shoving fake economic numbers up their butts.

Woah, rant # 1...OVER!
 

jreznyc

Registered
Joined
Nov 23, 2008
Messages
22
Likes
5
surfing said:
Or another way to look at that is that it results in a government completely overrun by special interest lobbyists, total regulatory capture and legislative gridlock. In other words, affecting change in either scenario is nearly impossible; but people (in both countries) mostly see things as they choose to.

You're 100% right about Govt being overrun by special interests. That's something that definitely can, and has been the result of the increasing power and growth of Special interest groups. Lord knows the us govt can be incredibly ineffective and gridlocked, as it is today; it's also basically become a supermarket where the wealthy can purchase power directly from the politicians through lobbyists, SIG's and now, PACs. But this is generally the case in every country. Same sh*t different color.

The difference I do see however, and what I am specifically referring to, is at the grassroots level. Individuals coming together, creating a group for a cause, or to tackle a problem they see in their society. That happens a lot in the US. I get the feeling it doesn't happen nearly as much proportionally here. It's ironic because of how passionate and grnerally knowledgable Argentines are about local and world issues and politics. I always hear people discussing politics, society and issues whenever I'm walking around, at a cafe, on the bus, etc. At the end of the day, I've only been here for a couple of months, so I'm curious if what ive seen so far is representative of how it really is.

Another thing I'm thinking about as I'm writing this is perhaps this is all affected by how participative this government is to the average citizen. In the US, pretty much anyone who has the will to do it, can pretty easily get involved in small community political groups, and take that involvement all the way from local government, to state govt, to the national level for some. It is possible.

I wonder how the present day democratic government here works in that regard, and if maybe that has something to do with the general apathy? I'm not saying that people need to get involved directly in government to affect change (as a matter of fact that is frequently the point at which someone with good intentions is corrupted), rather that maybe the perception of average citizens of how participatory, or democratic, a government is maybe has a correlation to how much grassroots activism is present in a given society.
 

jreznyc

Registered
Joined
Nov 23, 2008
Messages
22
Likes
5
nicoenarg said:
Another thing that I think became a huge problem for people in Argentina was and is the worship of the Peron family. It was J. Peron who, being an admirer of Mussolini, destroyed individualism in Argentina and replaced that with "We are all Argentina!". Of course, its not just Peron who should be blamed for that, since the people happily complied.

This country is on a downward spiral and there isn't much people here can do about it because yeah the politicians are corrupt, but people don't give a flying rat's ass as long as they get their subsidies and their soccer/futbol/football games and as long as their politicians keep shoving fake economic numbers up their butts.

GREAT POINT...this bears repeating
 

surfing

Registered
Joined
Apr 29, 2011
Messages
682
Likes
340
And yet something such as gay marriage is put up for a vote and passes with very little drama. That's just one case off the top of my head but clearly that was the result of grassroots efforts -- I am sure there must be more examples. I am not trying to be argumentative but I just don't like this idea that countries/societies can be compared so simplistically.
 

nicoenarg

Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2012
Messages
1,778
Likes
1,488
surfing said:
And yet something such as gay marriage is put up for a vote and passes with very little drama. That's just one case off the top of my head but clearly that was the result of grassroots efforts -- I am sure there must be more examples. I am not trying to be argumentative but I just don't like this idea that countries/societies can be compared so simplistically.

Perhaps this is a case of "people here don't care"? This is, I guess, one of the few good aspects of people not caring about anything.

Also, this does not affect the majority of the country so why should there be expectations of "drama" when there never is any drama even for things that actually matter to basically everyone (like say, uh, INFLATION!).

See, I am not gay yet I don't care (that's right, I don't care) if gay people marry or just remain partners. Whatever people do amongst themselves is their business. But what I do care about is, among other things, when people including myself have to deal with price increases every freakin' weak. That does matter to me whether people paying higher prices are gay, straight or crooked!

What pisses me off is the attitude of the CITIZENS of this country. Their reply "ES ARGENTINA!!!" makes me want to kick a nearby dog (especially one that's pooing on the damn pavement).
 

jreznyc

Registered
Joined
Nov 23, 2008
Messages
22
Likes
5
surfing said:
And yet something such as gay marriage is put up for a vote and passes with very little drama. That's just one case off the top of my head but clearly that was the result of grassroots efforts -- I am sure there must be more examples. I am not trying to be argumentative but I just don't like this idea that countries/societies can be compared so simplistically.

I don't get what point you're trying to make about grassroots, and the gay marriage example...are you saying that's an example of grassroots succeeding or failing at improving things? What I am saying about grassroots activism is that it can and has been used effectively in the US for good causes that people care about, and that I don't see the same type of activity here.

Regardless, i agree that countries can not be compared so simplistically and it's not at all what I'm trying to do...I'm simply contemplating why certain things are the way they are here. And since I'm born and raised in the US, its all I've ever known, so of course I would use what I know as a point of comparison. But I don't use that comparison to come to any judgement...again, it's a general contemplation.
 
Top