Conservative.definition.

Noesdeayer

Registered
Joined
Apr 1, 2014
Messages
886
Likes
757
According to Thesaurus.com
Conservative is someone " disposed to perserve existing conditions,institutions,etc.or to restore traditional ones and to limit CHANGE"..A better definition of Scioli's policy platform would be difficult to find.Also,there is no need to become xenophobic about it.
 

Matiasba

Registered
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
2,298
Likes
1,069
you really think that Scioli, or Kirchnerismo, is conservative?

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
 

Noesdeayer

Registered
Joined
Apr 1, 2014
Messages
886
Likes
757
Originally,in spite of its marked fascist inlfuence which Peron copied from Mussolini- the corporate state etc.-it was somewhat revoluionary.However after 70 years of basically the same unchangng party line and its vast institutalization in the Argentine body politic,I believe it has become archconservative.Scioli has pleged to continue in the same manner
 

Dada

Registered
Joined
Jun 8, 2015
Messages
231
Likes
318
The problem of ideologies such as marxism, comunism, fascism or peronism is the huge gap between the original ideals and the system in practice.
 

bradlyhale

Registered
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Messages
2,048
Likes
1,471
Noesdeayer: First and foremost, we can have a general notion of what conservatism is, which is more or less the definition you provide. However, at the end of the day, the definition is defined by the political context of the country.

Secondly, your definition assumes 1) that Argentine political history began with Néstor Kirchner and 2) that peronismo has been the same since its inception. I think you'll admit that both of these assumptions are incorrect. With regard to the first point, no explanation is necessary. On the second point, peronismo menemista is vastly different from the peronismo kirchnerista, for example. There are similarities in governance perhaps, but the policies are vastly, vastly different.

Even if you start Argentine history with Perón, you ignore the factors that gave rise to his popularity, which were in play before and during his rule, after it and today.
 

ElQueso

Registered
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
2,698
Likes
3,056
Within the political context of this country, seems to me that anyone who is espousing peronismo is the conservative element. Anyone talking about free markets is a radical.

Cristina never parted from peronismo, it seems to me. If anything, she was more strongly peronist than her husband. Remember those signs with her and Eva Peron side-by-side with a slogan that said something like "On wings Cristina and Eva help"? She did everything she could to associate herself with Peron and Eva. That she was also imitating Chavez doesn't subtract from her peronist actions either, and they kind of mix anyway.

How is Scioli, and even Massa for all that, how are they not conservative in the political context of this country? Particularly in this country you don't have to do exactly the same thing that Peron would do in order to call yourself a peronist, but Cristina certainly did Peron's fascist thing mixed with Eva's help the poor thing. She did everything she could to control the economy and try to tell it exactly what she thought should happen. Remember Peron's statement about what he thought of a well-ordered economy? She's trying to bring back Peron's vision in her own way. Conservativism doesn't have to be a direct copy, particularly when the original version is so vague anyway. It's the attitude of the country.

Scioli is running for president under her party, with her blessing. While he may be more moderate than she is, he's still conservative, to me. Massa is conservative. Macri's a radical.
 

bradlyhale

Registered
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Messages
2,048
Likes
1,471
Cristina never parted from peronismo, it seems to me. If anything, she was more strongly peronist than her husband. Remember those signs with her and Eva Peron side-by-side with a slogan that said something like "On wings Cristina and Eva help"? She did everything she could to associate herself with Peron and Eva. That she was also imitating Chavez doesn't subtract from her peronist actions either, and they kind of mix anyway.

So, by your standards, Macri is also a peronista. http://www.bubblear....oing-peron-ish/ - Good to know.

There is no doubt that kirchnerismo has elements of peronismo, but it's not 100% peronismo. And even within peronismo, you have various different factions. https://youtu.be/v7Z1A7WhZ5Y?t=15m3s

While he may be more moderate than she is, he's still conservative, to me. Massa is conservative. Macri's a radical.

If Argentine history starts in 2001, you're right. But throughout Argentina's history, those like Macri have more often ruled the country than not.
 

thorsten

Registered
Joined
Jan 24, 2014
Messages
1,124
Likes
1,676
In my opinion it's pretty much a waste of time discussing who is (more/less) peronist, given there is no common definition what the word actually means. Ask 10 people and you get 10 different answers...
 

Noesdeayer

Registered
Joined
Apr 1, 2014
Messages
886
Likes
757
Brady: Argentine political history began long before Nestor Kirchner and my definition does not assume anything different. Quite naturally there were real and justified reasons for Peronism.As Gloria Alvarez said ," If the Latin American elite had sacrificed only a part of their wealth,they might not have provoked such social inequality and subsequent unrest and revolution".In Argentina,"la oligarquia contumaz" -"The pig-headed (my translation) oligarqy " did not and they got Justicialism for it.
I still argue that the changes in the latter have been basically cosmetic.Menemism was not really peronism ,but rather, a frail attempt at change from within something like Filipillo Gonzalez 's PSOE did in Spain but the Radicals staunchly protectionist thwarted him at every turn.
thorsten: Peronism,as Herminio Iglesias said, is a feeling.It is a huge umbrella gouping of feeling or whatever you want to make of it .Especially,if you are a party loyakist or looking for a "davida" -a gov't hand out
 
Top