El País: Argentina, de ejemplo regional a estar acorralada por la covid-19

Renzi

Registered
"The current spread of the virus throughout the country has steepened the curve of the pandemic at a time when it is descending in most Latin American countries. In terms of the number of deaths per million, considered the most reliable data for making comparisons given the generalized underreporting of cases, Argentina has half that of Peru —552 versus 1,045— and is ninth in the continent, behind countries such as Bolivia, Brazil, Ecuador, Mexico and Chile. However, it is increasingly moving away from Uruguay, considered today the regional success story (15 deaths per million) and it is likely that it will soon surpass Colombia (567), which had its peak in August and today is around 150 deaths a day compared to at 400 from Argentina."

 

UK Man

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If only all the figures were accurate...therein lies the problem. Been told by one of the so called experts that all the S American figures are seen by them as ''well dodgy'' and the rest of the world ones aren't exactly believed to be all that accurate either.
 

Alby

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Yes, that thought had occured to me too. How can anyone, anywhere, really know their own figures, with so many asymptomatic cases that will never be counted. Possibly the only way any comparison will be possible, will be, eventually, to look back over the excess death rates. That may tell us as much as we can ever know about where the virus hit hardest.

In hindsight, I am less supportive now of the lockdown, but I suppose we could argue that by delaying the onslaught, a country like Argentina is losing less lives than it otherwise might have because people are getting sick when more is known about treatment. It wasn't exactly the argument that was made at the start (nobody was going to get because estado presente), but it seem to be a downstream benefit.
 

BAHibs

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If the figures continue as they are is there not a chance that Argentina is going to surpass Brazil in terms of the number of deaths per head of population?

I was in favor of the lockdown at the beginning, buying the country time to prepare the health system and educate the population.

But each day now with over 400 deaths and over 17k of cases something clearly has went wrong.
 

Greg S

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In the USA, the CARE Act pays hospitals a 20% bonus for each Medicare/Medicaid patient diagnosed with C19. Does this lead to misdiagnoses for profit?


The Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) yesterday released new guidance implementing several provisions included in the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security (CARES) Act. These provisions include:

A Medicare add-on payment of 20% for both rural and urban inpatient hospital COVID-19 patients;
 

Renzi

Registered
If the figures continue as they are is there not a chance that Argentina is going to surpass Brazil in terms of the number of deaths per head of population?

I was in favor of the lockdown at the beginning, buying the country time to prepare the health system and educate the population.

But each day now with over 400 deaths and over 17k of cases something clearly has went wrong.
I was also in favor of the lockdown and generally positive about the government's handling of the pandemic at one point. But it's now clear there was no strategy beyond having a lockdown and hoping for the best. As I've posted elsewhere, Argentina is well behind much poorer countries in terms of testing. A quarantine is meant to be part of a broader strategy that includes testing, treatment, etc., not a strategy in itself.

Perhaps this is being cynical, but a pattern I'm starting to see globally is that countries that are the most divided politically at the moment are having the worst outbreaks. This could be in part because opposition parties have an interest in the failure of the incumbent government, and said governments don't want to be seen as compromising with the opposition even during a national emergency. It's zero-sum politics at their worst. This is playing out in Brazil, Argentina, perhaps India to certain degree, and most obviously the US.
 

antipodean

Registered
I was also in favor of the lockdown and generally positive about the government's handling of the pandemic at one point. But it's now clear there was no strategy beyond having a lockdown and hoping for the best. As I've posted elsewhere, Argentina is well behind much poorer countries in terms of testing. A quarantine is meant to be part of a broader strategy that includes testing, treatment, etc., not a strategy in itself.

Perhaps this is being cynical, but a pattern I'm starting to see globally is that countries that are the most divided politically at the moment are having the worst outbreaks. This could be in part because opposition parties have an interest in the failure of the incumbent government, and said governments don't want to be seen as compromising with the opposition even during a national emergency. It's zero-sum politics at their worst. This is playing out in Brazil, Argentina, perhaps India to certain degree, and most obviously the US.
In a word, popularism. Same thing in US, Russia or Brazil. Optics and propaganda are valued more than results. Messages and objectives are slippery and vague. The ONLY politics to ever work in any popularist regime is one of “us” versus “them” at a very extreme level.

The opposition is irrelevant as they don’t make the policy and nor do they even have a significant say. Also in most cases the opposition followers in the community were those with the strictest personal protocols and taking the greatest personal precautions to curb transmission, so it’s not them either.

In fact taking the Argentina example the opposition governed CABA actually got results and was able to lead by example in terms of focusing on testing and trying to strike a balance between hunger and health. Yet time and again they were foo-fooed and blocked by the National government.
 

Renzi

Registered
In a word, popularism. Same thing in US, Russia or Brazil. Optics and propaganda are valued more than results. Messages and objectives are slippery and vague. The ONLY politics to ever work in any popularist regime is one of “us” versus “them” at a very extreme level.

The opposition is irrelevant as they don’t make the policy and nor do they even have a significant say. Also in most cases the opposition followers in the community were those with the strictest personal protocols and taking the greatest personal precautions to curb transmission, so it’s not them either.

In fact taking the Argentina example the opposition governed CABA actually got results and was able to lead by example in terms of focusing on testing and trying to strike a balance between hunger and health. Yet time and again they were foo-fooed and blocked by the National government.
I agree with you in part as far as Argentina. But I think you greatly underestimate the influence that the opposition has. They have CABA, and less than a year ago they still had the presidency. They also have the backing of wealthy technocrats and their think tanks from both Argentina and abroad who are behind many of the anti-quarantine protests in many countries. They can also mobilize a lot of people and create chaos for the government when they want to, like they did with the Vicentin issue. Many of those protesters had been intentionally misinformed that mass expropriations and governent seizure of private property were going to follow (invoking "Agentina is becoming Venezuela, Cuba," etc.), and had less to do with the seizure itself.

Being opposed to a policy because it has failed to meet its supposed public health objectives is different from simply being unhappy that it negatively affected profits. I would say that almost summarizes the difference between Larreta, who seems like a pragmatic and effective politician, and Macri, who is simply looking for any reason to say in the spotlight after a failed presidency.
 

antipodean

Registered
I agree with you in part as far as Argentina. But I think you greatly underestimate the influence that the opposition has. They have CABA, and less than a year ago they still had the presidency. They also have the backing of wealthy technocrats and their think tanks from both Argentina and abroad who are behind many of the anti-quarantine protests in many countries. They can also mobilize a lot of people and create chaos for the government when they want to, like they did with the Vicentin issue. Many of those protesters had been intentionally misinformed that mass expropriations and governent seizure of private property were going to follow (invoking "Agentina is becoming Venezuela, Cuba," etc.), and had less to do with the seizure itself.

Being opposed to a policy because it has failed to meet its supposed public health objectives is different from simply being unhappy that it negatively affected profits. I would say that almost summarizes the difference between Larreta, who seems like a pragmatic and effective politician, and Macri, who is simply looking for any reason to say in the spotlight after a failed presidency.
I agree that Macri is a waste of time. It’s good he lost the election. This country needs political accountability if it is ever going to change, if they don’t do they job they are elected and paid for, they loose it at the next election. Not this screwed up cycle of eternal foregivness and selective revision of the recent past.

However Vicintin has nothing to do with the amount of deaths and cases that transformed Argentina from one of the best COVID performers into one of the worst.
I really cannot see any solid or substantiated correlation between the opposition and the amount of COVID circulating in Argentina and the new layers on top of the economic quagmire after one of the worlds longest and strictest lockdowns. Even the anti-quarantine marchers here were tiny, a few conspiracy theorists smoking their hash pipes. What got people on the street was a reaction to various actions of the government taken over this time - which frankly they had the option not to take at this time if they wanted to focus first and foremost of unity and crisis control. This is 100% with the policy makers at a national level.
 
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