Lionel Messi leaves Barcelona FC. It’s the end of an era.

Higuain had a clear penalty and Neuer should have been sent off, but Messi missed a great chance about ten minutes earlier. It still boggles me how an attack line of Messi Aguero Higuain scored so few goals that year.
I want to tread carefully but much of what you are writing seems to be from just a casual fan or someone who doesn't play football? If that's not the case I apologize, but there are some things not checking out for me. Do you mean the final? Messi didn't have one "sitter" in the final, but Higuain famously did. Regarding the clear penalty, it was not clear at all. Neuer's eyes were on the ball and he cleanly punched it away, taking out the man in the process. At worst it was 50/50 but in football these challenges almost always go unchecked. You have the perfect example, although less dramatic, in that same game. Garay clashed with Kramer in the first half in an incident that looked bad, but not once was his intent to foul. By the way, Kramer went off because of that challenge. Yes, there are incidents when intent must be removed if there is clear dangerous play involved, such as studs up with two feet. Neither of these incidents were like that and if they were, every clash of heads in the box would result in someone being sent off.

Regarding the lack of goals, it is clear why that happened. Firstly, Aguero hardly played. He played the two group games, went off in the first half of the third. He was injured for the second round and quarters. He returned for the semi final... for 8 minutes before coming on as second half sub in the final. Di Maria may have been a more fitting name to include, but even he missed the semis and final.

So, Argentina's attack was hampered almost throughout the tournament, one way or another.

However, none of that explains the lack of goals. That 2014 team was set up to control games and defend, understanding the limitations of the midfield and defenders at that time. I somewhat disagree with this tactic as it did limit the effect of Messi who was left playing too deep, especially in the knock out rounds. If you have Argentina's attacking talent in that tournament and they only score 7 goals, it is easily explained... the team was not creating enough.

I'm actually a Barça supporter and am grateful for what he's done for all these years, but he's also been part of the problem. For one, without Xavi and A. Iñiesta he is not the same player. It's very telling that they still won 1 World Cup, and 2 Euro Cups without him, and Messi without them hasn't won anything significant internationally. He's had a lot of negative influence behind the scenes, like having a tantrum and basically forcing the sale of Zlatan, or the fact that a very out of his depth Tata Martino was brought on just to make him happy. He needs the right team, the right coach. Maradona could make a crap team into champions.
Ok, I want to clarify I am no Messi fanboy. I support Manchester United so Ronaldo will always be my preferences, although I concede Messi is the outright better player of the two.

Comparing Xavi and Iniesta's international success against Messi and using it against him means nothing. George Best, Johan Cryuff, Zico (or anyone from the 78-83 Brazil team), Puskas, Eusabio, Raul, Paolo Maldini, Oliver Kahn, and many more elite level talents never won an international tournament. Morgens Krogh did though, winning the 1992 Euros as Denmark's second choice goalkeeper. It's not telling at all Xavi and Iniesta won the world cup without Messi, they were playing in one of the best international teams ever. If Messi was, he would have won too. I think people don't realise that Argentina of the last 15 years has been an average group of players elevated by some outstanding talent. Look at where most of these guys play, that should tell you the level of talent.

Where would Messi fit? Really, you are asking this. Spain's style was perfect because it was Barcelona lite. It took Pep's blueprint. Messi would have played right forward in the Spain team, Alonso would have been dropped and Iniesta back in midfield. It would have been Barcelona's midfield and forwards. Only four players from the starting 11 were not from Barca.

I don't agree about his influence behind the scenes, with Barcelona increasingly becoming Messi FC. That said, you have it slightly wrong regarding what that influence has meant. Firstly, it was not Messi but Pep who pushed Ibra out of Barcelona. I mean, this is not my opinion but very well documented by Zlatan himself in his book and in numerous interviews.

He's not shy about highlighting his dislike for Guardiola because of it. Sure, Messi was the reason, because he wanted to play through the middle, but he was not kicking a fuss about it back then. His influence on Barca was not what it was 10 years ago, but his influcene on Pep was. When Messi says he wants to play through the middle, it's Guardiola's wet dream because it is the system he has always adored but had not yet used a lot. So, Pep is thrilled and instantly begins a campaign against Zalatan by dropping him, playing him out of position, etc. That's Pep's choice, of course, but he did so with the knowledge a player like Ibra would be looking for the exit. It's worth remembering Pep was already pushing Messi towards playing centrally when he treated Eto'o in a similar way the season before.

I think Pep takes the blame for this one, although the quality of Messi will always mean him saying he wants to play anywhere on the forward line would mean someone is out of the team. I guess we could argue Messi could have said nothing and just kept playing at a right forward, whcih incidentally he went back to being when David Villa arrived. I think Pep just hates the classic center forward, whcih he has shown across all the clubs he has been with, including forcing Lewandowski and Aguero to change how they play the game. For the better, for what it's worth.

I agree with Martino, a bizzare decision by Barcelona and I think this highlights the power Messi has. He chooses the manager, he chooses the team, and he apparantly chooses the president (I think Messi stays and is pushing for the president to resign). This leads to perhaps the biggest myth about Messi... he is some really nice and humble guy. It's interesting Ronaldo gets bad press but I don't recall a single occasion where he compromised his team or made public shows like Messi does. He wanted to leave United, he gave them one more year on Ferguson's request. His time was up at Madrid, he left in a normal way. He plays with anyone and has never really questioned his managers. Messi is the supposed nice guy of football and threatens to leave (this is not the first time) when things don't go his way. He even did it for the national team after the Copa penalty shootout. He was also really disrespectful this season by giving interviews essentially throwing Quique under the bus. Don't get me wrong, what he said was true, but behind closed doors.

Lastly, I don't buy into the idea he needs the right team and coach. He had a very average Argentina team and made the World Cup final. He has had many coaches with Barcelona and has always been the best player on the team and often driving any success they had. Even this season, which ended in failure, Messi 28 goals and 24 assists. How many forwards in Europe are putting those numbers out for scoring and creating?... I can think of three, Lewa, Ronaldo, and Mbappe, with the likes of Sancho and Martial there or there abouts.

I won't get drawn to the Messi or Maradona debate because I think Maradona was only once even the best player in Serie A. And I would take the Ronaldos (Luis and Cristiano) over both of them if I was managing a team, although I think Messi is the best of all-time.
 
I want to tread carefully but much of what you are writing seems to be from just a casual fan or someone who doesn't play football? If that's not the case I apologize, but there are some things not checking out for me. Do you mean the final? Messi didn't have one "sitter" in the final, but Higuain famously did. Regarding the clear penalty, it was not clear at all. Neuer's eyes were on the ball and he cleanly punched it away, taking out the man in the process. At worst it was 50/50 but in football these challenges almost always go unchecked. You have the perfect example, although less dramatic, in that same game. Garay clashed with Kramer in the first half in an incident that looked bad, but not once was his intent to foul. By the way, Kramer went off because of that challenge. Yes, there are incidents when intent must be removed if there is clear dangerous play involved, such as studs up with two feet. Neither of these incidents were like that and if they were, every clash of heads in the box would result in someone being sent off.

Regarding the lack of goals, it is clear why that happened. Firstly, Aguero hardly played. He played the two group games, went off in the first half of the third. He was injured for the second round and quarters. He returned for the semi final... for 8 minutes before coming on as second half sub in the final. Di Maria may have been a more fitting name to include, but even he missed the semis and final.

So, Argentina's attack was hampered almost throughout the tournament, one way or another.

However, none of that explains the lack of goals. That 2014 team was set up to control games and defend, understanding the limitations of the midfield and defenders at that time. I somewhat disagree with this tactic as it did limit the effect of Messi who was left playing too deep, especially in the knock out rounds. If you have Argentina's attacking talent in that tournament and they only score 7 goals, it is easily explained... the team was not creating enough.


Ok, I want to clarify I am no Messi fanboy. I support Manchester United so Ronaldo will always be my preferences, although I concede Messi is the outright better player of the two.

Comparing Xavi and Iniesta's international success against Messi and using it against him means nothing. George Best, Johan Cryuff, Zico (or anyone from the 78-83 Brazil team), Puskas, Eusabio, Raul, Paolo Maldini, Oliver Kahn, and many more elite level talents never won an international tournament. Morgens Krogh did though, winning the 1992 Euros as Denmark's second choice goalkeeper. It's not telling at all Xavi and Iniesta won the world cup without Messi, they were playing in one of the best international teams ever. If Messi was, he would have won too. I think people don't realise that Argentina of the last 15 years has been an average group of players elevated by some outstanding talent. Look at where most of these guys play, that should tell you the level of talent.

Where would Messi fit? Really, you are asking this. Spain's style was perfect because it was Barcelona lite. It took Pep's blueprint. Messi would have played right forward in the Spain team, Alonso would have been dropped and Iniesta back in midfield. It would have been Barcelona's midfield and forwards. Only four players from the starting 11 were not from Barca.

I don't agree about his influence behind the scenes, with Barcelona increasingly becoming Messi FC. That said, you have it slightly wrong regarding what that influence has meant. Firstly, it was not Messi but Pep who pushed Ibra out of Barcelona. I mean, this is not my opinion but very well documented by Zlatan himself in his book and in numerous interviews.

He's not shy about highlighting his dislike for Guardiola because of it. Sure, Messi was the reason, because he wanted to play through the middle, but he was not kicking a fuss about it back then. His influence on Barca was not what it was 10 years ago, but his influcene on Pep was. When Messi says he wants to play through the middle, it's Guardiola's wet dream because it is the system he has always adored but had not yet used a lot. So, Pep is thrilled and instantly begins a campaign against Zalatan by dropping him, playing him out of position, etc. That's Pep's choice, of course, but he did so with the knowledge a player like Ibra would be looking for the exit. It's worth remembering Pep was already pushing Messi towards playing centrally when he treated Eto'o in a similar way the season before.

I think Pep takes the blame for this one, although the quality of Messi will always mean him saying he wants to play anywhere on the forward line would mean someone is out of the team. I guess we could argue Messi could have said nothing and just kept playing at a right forward, whcih incidentally he went back to being when David Villa arrived. I think Pep just hates the classic center forward, whcih he has shown across all the clubs he has been with, including forcing Lewandowski and Aguero to change how they play the game. For the better, for what it's worth.

I agree with Martino, a bizzare decision by Barcelona and I think this highlights the power Messi has. He chooses the manager, he chooses the team, and he apparantly chooses the president (I think Messi stays and is pushing for the president to resign). This leads to perhaps the biggest myth about Messi... he is some really nice and humble guy. It's interesting Ronaldo gets bad press but I don't recall a single occasion where he compromised his team or made public shows like Messi does. He wanted to leave United, he gave them one more year on Ferguson's request. His time was up at Madrid, he left in a normal way. He plays with anyone and has never really questioned his managers. Messi is the supposed nice guy of football and threatens to leave (this is not the first time) when things don't go his way. He even did it for the national team after the Copa penalty shootout. He was also really disrespectful this season by giving interviews essentially throwing Quique under the bus. Don't get me wrong, what he said was true, but behind closed doors.

Lastly, I don't buy into the idea he needs the right team and coach. He had a very average Argentina team and made the World Cup final. He has had many coaches with Barcelona and has always been the best player on the team and often driving any success they had. Even this season, which ended in failure, Messi 28 goals and 24 assists. How many forwards in Europe are putting those numbers out for scoring and creating?... I can think of three, Lewa, Ronaldo, and Mbappe, with the likes of Sancho and Martial there or there abouts.

I won't get drawn to the Messi or Maradona debate because I think Maradona was only once even the best player in Serie A. And I would take the Ronaldos (Luis and Cristiano) over both of them if I was managing a team, although I think Messi is the best of all-time.
Wow, what a profound contribution to this thread. Someone has observed football over the last decades.... ;)

Regarding Neuer: interesting that even in the aftermath of this game a lot of world's top referees came to different conclusions on this penalty scene. For Helmut Krug (german referee of the 90's) it was a clear penalty plus a yellow, for others it was even penalty plus a red, some argued (Graham Poll, UK) it was in no way a foul. So even in times VAR, different referees will always come to completely different conclusions.

One point I agree with Renzi though: over the years (not only in WC 2014) the Argentina forwards were underperforming if you look at the players they had (Aguero, Higuain, Tevez, Dybala, Di Maria, Icardi did not even make it to the team mostly)
 
I want to tread carefully but much of what you are writing seems to be from just a casual fan or someone who doesn't play football? If that's not the case I apologize, but there are some things not checking out for me. Do you mean the final? Messi didn't have one "sitter" in the final, but Higuain famously did. Regarding the clear penalty, it was not clear at all. Neuer's eyes were on the ball and he cleanly punched it away, taking out the man in the process. At worst it was 50/50 but in football these challenges almost always go unchecked. You have the perfect example, although less dramatic, in that same game. Garay clashed with Kramer in the first half in an incident that looked bad, but not once was his intent to foul. By the way, Kramer went off because of that challenge. Yes, there are incidents when intent must be removed if there is clear dangerous play involved, such as studs up with two feet. Neither of these incidents were like that and if they were, every clash of heads in the box would result in someone being sent off.

Regarding the lack of goals, it is clear why that happened. Firstly, Aguero hardly played. He played the two group games, went off in the first half of the third. He was injured for the second round and quarters. He returned for the semi final... for 8 minutes before coming on as second half sub in the final. Di Maria may have been a more fitting name to include, but even he missed the semis and final.

So, Argentina's attack was hampered almost throughout the tournament, one way or another.

However, none of that explains the lack of goals. That 2014 team was set up to control games and defend, understanding the limitations of the midfield and defenders at that time. I somewhat disagree with this tactic as it did limit the effect of Messi who was left playing too deep, especially in the knock out rounds. If you have Argentina's attacking talent in that tournament and they only score 7 goals, it is easily explained... the team was not creating enough.


Ok, I want to clarify I am no Messi fanboy. I support Manchester United so Ronaldo will always be my preferences, although I concede Messi is the outright better player of the two.

Comparing Xavi and Iniesta's international success against Messi and using it against him means nothing. George Best, Johan Cryuff, Zico (or anyone from the 78-83 Brazil team), Puskas, Eusabio, Raul, Paolo Maldini, Oliver Kahn, and many more elite level talents never won an international tournament. Morgens Krogh did though, winning the 1992 Euros as Denmark's second choice goalkeeper. It's not telling at all Xavi and Iniesta won the world cup without Messi, they were playing in one of the best international teams ever. If Messi was, he would have won too. I think people don't realise that Argentina of the last 15 years has been an average group of players elevated by some outstanding talent. Look at where most of these guys play, that should tell you the level of talent.

Where would Messi fit? Really, you are asking this. Spain's style was perfect because it was Barcelona lite. It took Pep's blueprint. Messi would have played right forward in the Spain team, Alonso would have been dropped and Iniesta back in midfield. It would have been Barcelona's midfield and forwards. Only four players from the starting 11 were not from Barca.

I don't agree about his influence behind the scenes, with Barcelona increasingly becoming Messi FC. That said, you have it slightly wrong regarding what that influence has meant. Firstly, it was not Messi but Pep who pushed Ibra out of Barcelona. I mean, this is not my opinion but very well documented by Zlatan himself in his book and in numerous interviews.

He's not shy about highlighting his dislike for Guardiola because of it. Sure, Messi was the reason, because he wanted to play through the middle, but he was not kicking a fuss about it back then. His influence on Barca was not what it was 10 years ago, but his influcene on Pep was. When Messi says he wants to play through the middle, it's Guardiola's wet dream because it is the system he has always adored but had not yet used a lot. So, Pep is thrilled and instantly begins a campaign against Zalatan by dropping him, playing him out of position, etc. That's Pep's choice, of course, but he did so with the knowledge a player like Ibra would be looking for the exit. It's worth remembering Pep was already pushing Messi towards playing centrally when he treated Eto'o in a similar way the season before.

I think Pep takes the blame for this one, although the quality of Messi will always mean him saying he wants to play anywhere on the forward line would mean someone is out of the team. I guess we could argue Messi could have said nothing and just kept playing at a right forward, whcih incidentally he went back to being when David Villa arrived. I think Pep just hates the classic center forward, whcih he has shown across all the clubs he has been with, including forcing Lewandowski and Aguero to change how they play the game. For the better, for what it's worth.

I agree with Martino, a bizzare decision by Barcelona and I think this highlights the power Messi has. He chooses the manager, he chooses the team, and he apparantly chooses the president (I think Messi stays and is pushing for the president to resign). This leads to perhaps the biggest myth about Messi... he is some really nice and humble guy. It's interesting Ronaldo gets bad press but I don't recall a single occasion where he compromised his team or made public shows like Messi does. He wanted to leave United, he gave them one more year on Ferguson's request. His time was up at Madrid, he left in a normal way. He plays with anyone and has never really questioned his managers. Messi is the supposed nice guy of football and threatens to leave (this is not the first time) when things don't go his way. He even did it for the national team after the Copa penalty shootout. He was also really disrespectful this season by giving interviews essentially throwing Quique under the bus. Don't get me wrong, what he said was true, but behind closed doors.

Lastly, I don't buy into the idea he needs the right team and coach. He had a very average Argentina team and made the World Cup final. He has had many coaches with Barcelona and has always been the best player on the team and often driving any success they had. Even this season, which ended in failure, Messi 28 goals and 24 assists. How many forwards in Europe are putting those numbers out for scoring and creating?... I can think of three, Lewa, Ronaldo, and Mbappe, with the likes of Sancho and Martial there or there abouts.

I won't get drawn to the Messi or Maradona debate because I think Maradona was only once even the best player in Serie A. And I would take the Ronaldos (Luis and Cristiano) over both of them if I was managing a team, although I think Messi is the best of all-time.

I agree with most of your points. But I still don't think Messi would have fit in the Spanish team. As you pointed out, it would have meant dropping Alonso, and probably Fábregas (who never really fit in FCB), who were both essential parts of that midfield. Remember they won the 2012 Euro without a proper forward. Alonso scored a double against France, and I believe they played a 4-6-0 in the final. When Del Bosque tried to shoehorn Diego Costa in the 2014 WC, the results were almost embarrassing.

Man U? Then you've probably heard that Citeh are first in line for Messi. He might do well in the PL these days since the Ryan Shawcross and John Terry type of defender is becoming extinct, and Tony Pullis withering away in the Championship.
 
I agree with most of your points. But I still don't think Messi would have fit in the Spanish team. As you pointed out, it would have meant dropping Alonso, and probably Fábregas (who never really fit in FCB), who were both essential parts of that midfield. Remember they won the 2012 Euro without a proper forward. Alonso scored a double against France, and I believe they played a 4-6-0 in the final. When Del Bosque tried to shoehorn Diego Costa in the 2014 WC, the results were almost embarrassing.

Man U? Then you've probably heard that Citeh are first in line for Messi. He might do well in the PL these days since the Ryan Shawcross and John Terry type of defender is becoming extinct, and Tony Pullis withering away in the Championship.
It wouldn't have meant playing Fabregas. I am talking about the World Cup Final.

Iniesta started the game as the right forward, with Busquets as the holder and Xavi and Alonso as playmakers. David Villa center forward (much more than that in the Spain team, of course), and Pedro on the right (switching with Iniesta when neccesary). For Messi to enter the team, you would just have to turn the front six into Barcelona. All this would mean is dropping Alonso and moving Iniesta back into the midfield, with Messi assuming Iniesta's right-forward position. That was Barcelona's exact front six the following season so it would have been seamless for Messi to fit into that team and it would have improved them. Fabregas could have remained a sub and Alonso would have been on the bench too. If you wanted to keep Alonso, you could drop Pedro and move Iniesta to the left.

Messi and City? The fan in me says it would be a complete failure. That City would break their wage structure and upset other stars. That Pep will have to drop Aguero because Messi is not mobile enough anymore to play a right forward in the Premier League so would have to play a false 9. This would mean Pep needs to adjust his tactics and either way Messi just won't be able to handle the constant physicality of the league and will be gone by next summer.

The realist tells me Pep has worked with him before, is tactically clever, Messi will come with a point to prove, and will tear up the league.

The truth may end up somewhere in the middle. Let's not forget United had a Balon D'Or winning Ronaldo in their team playing with all his youth and mobility. He was amazing and the best player in the league, but he was not a cheat code for guaranteed success. If Messi comes, he probably brings City the title next season, but hey, anything is better than Liverpool winning it again.
 
Wow, what a profound contribution to this thread. Someone has observed football over the last decades.... ;)

Regarding Neuer: interesting that even in the aftermath of this game a lot of world's top referees came to different conclusions on this penalty scene. For Helmut Krug (german referee of the 90's) it was a clear penalty plus a yellow, for others it was even penalty plus a red, some argued (Graham Poll, UK) it was in no way a foul. So even in times VAR, different referees will always come to completely different conclusions.

One point I agree with Renzi though: over the years (not only in WC 2014) the Argentina forwards were underperforming if you look at the players they had (Aguero, Higuain, Tevez, Dybala, Di Maria, Icardi did not even make it to the team mostly)
Yeah, I am a long-time football fan and watch just about every game on TV. Argentina is a dream because across ESPN and FOX they show just about every major league and competition. Back in the UK, it was more about the Premier League and La Liga. I have really gotten into watching the Bundesliga since moving here, a fun league. Of course, Serie A is always a solid bet for a Sunday afternoon nap.

I don't disagee about Neuer, which is why I said it was a 50/50. That said, I would have been stunned if he was sent off for that.

I do disagree, to an extent, with Argentina's forwards. Firstly, some of those are not world class, Dybala and Icardi notably. Fine players, but Icardi is just a solid number 9 and Dybala still has to prove his huge potential (I like him a lot, he's just not there yet). Besides, in fairness to those two, they have not been given a fair try for the national team.

Higuain will get goals, but he is a classic center forward so if the team does not create, he doesn't score. Aguero and Tevez can/could do more with their skills, while Di Maria and Messi are the outright creators from that bunch. So, maybe four players. Maybe cross out Tevez because his era crossed the others. So, let's say the main forward line of Argentina over the last 6-8 years has been Di Maria, Higuain, Aguero, and Messi (who don't all fit into the same team in my opinion). I will just look at World Cups during that time:

2018: Best defender, Otamendi, who is second tier in the Premier League. Marcus Rojo who struggles to get into the Manchester United team, Fazio, solid but not anywhere near elite level. In midfield, the best player was Banega, who is a tidy and classy player but has never been world class. The rest were B players who are solid but don't win you games, like Biglia, Perez, and Lo Celso (is 24 now and looking increasingly like a talent). I am ignoring Mascherano who was already past his best.

I am also ignoring the poor goalkeepers Argentina has had for years. Romero was the pick of the bunch, a goalie who has spent the majority of his career as a number 2 in club football.

2014: Defenders, an aging and past their best Demichelis and Zabaletta, followed by the likes of Garay, Rojo, and Campagnaro. Midfiled, Mascherano was world-class but not a creator. Gago, Rodriquez, Perez, etc. Again, all these are just B-level players in club football.

The point of me listing these squads is to show that amazing forward line had a very average team playing behind them. A good comparison may be Liverpool's or PSG's current forwards with Everton's defence and midfield behind them. The only way for this type of squad to have any kind of success is to play as a team with a structured game plan. Under these situations, poor teams can do well (Greece winning the Euros, Leicester winning the Premier League, etc.).

That's what Argentina did, they had a game plan which was to control the possesion in games, stifle the opponent and defend as a block through midfield and defence. It worked too, at least in 2014 when an average squad got to the World Cup final. The situation was exposed in 2018. Could those forwards have done more? Sure, but I don't think as much as some believe. Argentina has been bereft of midfield creativity for ten years. Of course, I am making no excuses for blunders like Higuain's miss. He should have scored so on that level, he could have done more. I am addressing more the reason why Argentina's forwards have struggled for a generation. These are amazing players, one of them may be the best ever.

If I can be bothered after, I am going to check the analytics about chance creation during those World Cups. I guess Argentina created few chances.
 
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