Moving to Electric Vehicles in Argentina

[toongeorges]

Europe is moving towards electric vehicles and so are China and the US. How will it go in Argentina where the only creative thing the government can do is invent new taxes?

For some perspective, in Brussels, (not so) old diesel cars will be banned in 2028. Newly bought diesels and (not so) old petrol and CNG or LPG cars will be banned in 2030 and the newest petrol, CNG or LPG cars will be banned in 2035.

Because of the electrification of the vehicles, the company that distributes the electricity is planning on spending billions of dollars in upgrading the electricity grid in the coming years, because even though the electricity grid is fine now, according to its projections, in a couple of years it won't be able to cope with the demand. The main issue is that electricity consumption (and production) will be less stable in a couple of years. The expectation is that there will be a huge peak in demand in the evening after people come home from their work and start charging their cars. Also, there will be more renewable energy production, which is less stable since the sun does not always shine or the wind does not always blow.

How is Argentine dealing with these challenges to the electricity grid or is Argentina planning to just keep using fossil fuels?

 

[jlynch]

unless electric cars are produced in argentina, unlikely it will happen any time soon, and given the current cepo and restrictions on imports and access to foreign currency I don't see any auto company making the investment here for that.

the electric grid can barely keep up as is at the moment, chinese investment (belt and road?) building Atucha III nuclear plant. Adding to the 3 existing nuclear plants...Atucha I and Atucha II with German technology. Embalse nuclear power plant with Canadian technology. Also importing liquified natural gas for power production.

paradoxially argentina should be a leader in this field, given the natural resources, lithium they should be producing batteries here but they just export the lithium to other countries. all signed off by provincial governments to private firms.

The salt flats of Argentina, Bolivia and Chile account for almost 60% of global lithium resources. Argentina is home to 9% of the world’s total reserves – resources whose exploitation has been proven to be viable in technical and economic terms – and these are the third-largest behind Chile and Australia. https://dialogochino.net/en/extractive-industries/argentina-future-of-lithium-sector/

 

[carride]

This article 6 months ago mentions that regulations do not yet allow selling electricity direct to consumers so the first one installed, at an YPF station in the Neuquén province, is without cost. I assume this means they are slow to decide if 3rd parties will be allowed resell electric. A more recent article mentions plans to install 18 new charging points along route 40 in the Patagonia touristic lakes region.

El desafío de avanzar sobre la ley de electromovilidad en Neuquén

Se habilitó el primer cargador para autos eléctricos en una estación de servicio. Está ubicado en una YPF de Plottier. El Congreso debe tratar el proyecto para reglamentar la comercialización de energía en los puntos de carga.

www.rionegro.com.ar

 

[Ries]

When they get cheap enough, you will see them. The average car on the road in Argentina is $16k USD at the official rate, half that at blue.
Thats less than half the cost of the average car in the USA or Europe.
The chinese are making sub $10k electrics now, and they will trickle in, even if "assembled" in Uruguay.
They are so much cheaper to run, especially with argentine subsidized electric rates, that I have no doubt you will be seeing more every year.
As for diesel- I am old enough to remember when almost all the taxis in BA were diesel 504's, and the streets were a constant haze of black smoke. The government can change the electric car ratio in a year, if they choose to.

 

[toongeorges]

When they get cheap enough, you will see them. The average car on the road in Argentina is $16k USD at the official rate, half that at blue.
Thats less than half the cost of the average car in the USA or Europe.
The chinese are making sub $10k electrics now, and they will trickle in, even if "assembled" in Uruguay.
They are so much cheaper to run, especially with argentine subsidized electric rates, that I have no doubt you will be seeing more every year.
As for diesel- I am old enough to remember when almost all the taxis in BA were diesel 504's, and the streets were a constant haze of black smoke. The government can change the electric car ratio in a year, if they choose to.

Then how are Edenor and Edesur investing in the electricity grid to make this possible? You can have electric cars, but if charging them causes electrical blackouts, it is not very useful.

 

[jlynch]

When they get cheap enough, you will see them. The average car on the road in Argentina is $16k USD at the official rate, half that at blue.
Thats less than half the cost of the average car in the USA or Europe.
The chinese are making sub $10k electrics now, and they will trickle in, even if "assembled" in Uruguay.
They are so much cheaper to run, especially with argentine subsidized electric rates, that I have no doubt you will be seeing more every year.
As for diesel- I am old enough to remember when almost all the taxis in BA were diesel 504's, and the streets were a constant haze of black smoke. The government can change the electric car ratio in a year, if they choose to.

GNC (subsidised like electricity) is also very cheap to run here.

 

[Ries]

Then how are Edenor and Edesur investing in the electricity grid to make this possible? You can have electric cars, but if charging them causes electrical blackouts, it is not very useful.

This is the classic right wing argument in the USA- that the grid will fail. Across the world, it turns out, that the transition has been slow, and that no grids have failed yet.

Its true the Edenor and Edesur are particularly screwed up, due to the cut rate deals when they were privatized, and the subsequent almost complete lack of infrastructure investment.

Its also true that the argentine regulations and economy encourage the least efficient means of heating and cooling, individual heat pumps, rather than whole building systems, solar, other more modern, energy efficient techniques.
But globally, the electrical consumption of most consumer goods keeps getting lower per unit, as new tech gets invented- modern fridges, washing machine, air conditioner, and other big draw consumer items use much less wattage, and thus, are adopted globally by consumers, so the trend will be towards lower per capita electrical use, eventually, in Argentina.

In most first world countries, we have seen drastic per capita use drops in the last 20 years, which more than accomodates the increase in car charging, and car charging is almost always at night, at times of least draw on the grid anyway.
In other words, its a problem that doesnt actually exist in the countries that are currently seeing big increases in electric cars.

Obvio, the Argentine government has structural barriers to all kinds of sensible policies, but often as not, they were placed to benefit ogliarchs, like the ones who own Edenor and Edesur, not for some mysterious communist reason. Here, for example, is where your Edenor bill goes- the yacht of one of the owners. https://yachtbible.com/attila-yacht/

People, individually, will buy electric cars, because they are cheaper to run, and gas is not going to drastically become cheaper in our lifetimes.
But it will happen slow enough that the utilities will find ways to keep up.

 

[Ries]

GNC (subsidised like electricity) is also very cheap to run here.

yes, and that is largely because the governmet required all 30,000 taxis in buenos aires to switch to GNC. And, magically, the infrastructure appeared to supply them, and the system didnt fail. Lots of private individuals have switched to GNC, because, again, its cheaper. And as reasonably priced electric cars appear, the same thing will happen- people will vote with their wallets.

 

[Reply Guy]

In theory, electric vehicles make sense for Argentina. They have nuclear energy, significant parts of the country ideal for wind and solar, plus the dam on the border of Paraguay. They can export shale oil and gas for USD.

I'm not an engineer so I don't know about the grid argument, but it does appear that it does need to be upgraded electric vehicles or not.

 

[jlynch]

yes, and that is largely because the governmet required all 30,000 taxis in buenos aires to switch to GNC. And, magically, the infrastructure appeared to supply them, and the system didnt fail. Lots of private individuals have switched to GNC, because, again, its cheaper. And as reasonably priced electric cars appear, the same thing will happen- people will vote with their wallets.

argentina generates some electricity burning natural gas (don't know exact percentages of whats supplied to the grid). is it really cheaper to use this electricity generated from the gas or burn the natural gas directly in your car? (efficiency of a car engine burning gas vs a power station?). I havn't noticed a similar infrastructure for GNC at similar scale outside of argentina.