No...no...no...this Can't Be Real...

PhilipDT

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http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1723751-el-chavismo-estreno-su-propio-padre-nuestro-chavez-nuestro-que-estas-en-el-cielo

I really thought that I couldn't keep being surprised by the absolute rediculousness that this clown puts out. I was wrong.

Que verguenza
 
Although I share some things made by his government, I consider this plain ignorance.



*** and I wanted to say this before the typical trolling and moronic ajos comment about my opinion on something ***
 
Chávez nuestro
que estás en el cielo,
en la tierra, en el mar y en nosotros,
los y las delegadas,
santificado sea tu nombre,
venga a nosotros tu legado para llevarlo a los pueblos de aquí y de allá
Danos hoy tu luz para que nos guíe cada día,
no nos dejes caer en la tentación del capitalismo,
mas líbranos de la maldad de la oligarquía, del delito del contrabando
porque de nosotros y nosotras es la patria, la paz y la vida.
Por los siglos de los siglos amen

Please try saying this out loud without cracking up. And please give it some gravitas
 
PATER NOSTER, qui es in caelis,
sanctificetur nomen tuum.
Adveniat regnum tuum.
Fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo et in terra.
Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie,
et dimitte nobis debita nostra sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris.
Et ne nos inducas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo.
Amen.
 
Well, Peron has been nearly deified, why not another dictator whose legend will grow and outpace reality...
 
Dont want to start this discussion here, but Peron was not a dictator, since he always (three different times) got into power by democratical elections. The exact oposite of anti peronists who governed 1955-1958, 1962-1963, 1966-1973 and 1976-1983 by military coups, the last one who persecuted, tortured and disappeared peronists. Facts.
 
Dont want to start this discussion here, but Peron was not a dictator, since he always (three different times) got into power by democratical elections. The exact oposite of anti peronists who governed 1955-1958, 1962-1963, 1966-1973 and 1976-1983 by military coups, the last one who persecuted, tortured and disappeared peronists. Facts.
Ok you do have a point there, but can you at least concede our curiosity to explore the ways in which the Coronel might have exploited the Democratic system (and in the third admin that guy Campora), created a cult of personality and a one party system and changed the Constitution of the Republic?
Is a one party democracy a democracy?
 
To Matt84,

Peronismo never ever established a "one party dictatorship" or similar. Peron presented to elections in 1946 and won, then the reelection in 1950 and then in 1973. During the most part of the XXth century, there were two parties, the UCR or Radicalismo, which represented the wide middle class, and the Peronismo, that represented the poor and some middle class too (since the great majority of argentine society were middle class). And then of course the militars that represented the upper classes.
In fact, after the coup that sent Peron to exile in 1955 and prohibited peronismo for 20 years, there were two elections (again, forbidding Peronismo to participate) where the UCR won. In those two elections, totally under control of the miitars, we had one with an enormous percentage of blank votes and the other, a candidate winning after a secret pact with Peron while he was in Madrid, or at least a rumour of a pact installed in society.
These were the two main parties of Argentine democracy during the XXth century. The upper classes did not have political representation and thats why we had so many coups. Now we have the PRO.
Peronismo had its right wing, with some militars, nationalistic pro (military) industry, also some union leaders, from where Menem comes, for instance. Also some national bourgoise, mainly industrial. Thats the right-wing peronismo.
And then the left. The left in the end 60s and 70s were basically upper middle class students, or young people, sons of anti peronists of the 40s, their fathers were radicales. They were all inspired in the French May, in the cuban revolution, Che Guevara, liberation in the wide sense, etc, in that organic crisis societies had in the 60s. They were all young, they had strong support of the working class, true, some industrial workers, the better paid, but they were mostly young people, intellectuals, majority university students, upper middle class. They were the object of persecution of last dictatorship, they were the ones who dissapeared, who were murdered, who had to leave the country. The missing generation. This is where the Ks come, from the JP (Juventud Peronista or Peronist Youth, in english).

There were basically two different models of a country in dispute: the industrial urban middle class versus the agrarian capital, the "campo" (upper classes, the ones that posseses campos, that afterwards -in the 70s- will join to the financial capital. That was the last dictatorship, the alliance of agrarian and financial capitals to the detriment of industrial capital. Thats why the right wing governments, dictatorships and Menemismo were all de-insutrialising). Sadly, the only industrial plan this country ever had is Peronismo, is the PROYECTO NACIONAL Y POPULAR, with all its implicancies of demagogia, authoritarism, etc.
 
So you concede that Peronism does include demagoguery and authoritarianism, fine, but you stlll say it didn't mean to create a one party system, then why were people who were not members of the Party excluded from business and labor? Is it true that people were forced to assist Evita's funeral and even buy garlands for her?

Don't you see some idiomatic resemblance between National Popular and National Socialist, and "Worker's Party"?

Still, I know of East Asian countries that adopted the third position (Fascism) like Singapore with the British Fascist PArty's inspire PEople's Action PArty, or Taiwans long martial law, or South Korea, but they adopted COMPETITIVE industrialisation in accordance to their lack of agrarian resources. Peronists seem to propose to forgo all the agrarian capital Argentina comes with, and only focus on some bogus industrialisation. True it gave a place in society to all the extra immigrants that were not really needed, and it created Soviet-like achievements while the ordinary people suffered like the Argentine Nuclear Program, so I do give Peronism some credit.
But if it were a real industrial model it would make it competitive, and PEronism, particularly the left wing, is anything but, it glorifies incompetence.
So no agricultural model and no industrial model. I suppose a country of service sector slaves to a new government plutocracy (kleptocracy?) is the order of the day?
that would explain the declining quality of service
 
Peronismo is a phenomena that broke every structure in politics in Argentina. For the first time the masses, the excluded masses, found their leader, a leader that did everything to please them. He created lots of unions, gave lots of rights to the worker, that remain till today, like Aguinaldo or paid vacations. It was Argentine version of Keynesianism, the State involved in economy, regulating, confiscating, creating jobs (full employment level, country industrialised).
It was authoritarian because it had to be, if you want to make such changes nobodys gonna make it easy for you, especially the people with power. It was a revolution. People that got into university for the first time in entire generations of its families. Lots of big hospitals built in that time (that remain still today), social inclusion, heath and education like never happened before. The working class organised behind his leader, that probably like Mussolini, a charismatic relationship towards the masses.
The ignorant people from the poor interior, not only moved to the city and found a good job in industry, but also conquered rights. For example, Mar del Plata, a city with nice beaches exclusive for the rich, turned into this massive destination in summer. EVERYONE had (paid) vacations. These people, awfully dressed and with no taste nor education, started to go to the Recoleta caffes, to all the places where the rich used to go. It felt, to the rich, as an INVASION. Google "Aluvión Zoologico", something translated as "Zoo Flood".

So they were devotes of Peron and Evita. They owed them everything.

The problem was not only that the rich did not have a party, but that peronismo was, and still is, a majority. So every time we d had elections, peronismo would win. Thats why they prohibited the party for 18 years, sent Peron to Madrid, etc.

Peronismo never ever wanted to be the only party. Peronismo always wanted democracy. Because they d easily win. Thats why we had so many coups, thats why sindicates were intervened for years, and universities... the militars thought they had everything under control, but the social rage started to show. Google Cordobazo. There were social explosions in the late 60s. Picture the international context: Viet Nam, French May, Cuban revolution, Independence of Asia and Africa, Che Guevara, Cold War... and here the militars forbidding the mini skirt, intervening universities.... that situation couldnt continue. So after Cordobazo, the militars had no choice and ask Peron to come back home to elections. It was that or the Socialist Revolution. He won with more than 60% of the votes (to 23% the second)

So, to sum up, Peronismo always was for democracy. They were intervened and forbidden for 20 years and after Peron died they were persecuted, tortured and dissapeared. On the other hand, Peronismo was indeed very authoritarian and demagoguery was common. The cult for the personality, something Peron liked from Mussolini, was exaggerated. For instance, Peron and Evita in primary school were national heroes, at the same level than San Martin. the father of the country. Lots of places, provinces, cities, etc were called, renamed, Peron and Evita. I doubt the oposition were persecuted, no matter how much they were hated, and what they did, it was light years from what will came after. They even bombed Plaza de Mayo!!! Killed houndreds there!! They prohibited a figure, it was forbidden to pronounce his name in public!! Of course talking of the dictatorrships BEFORE the last one, where oposition were plainly exterminated. Theres no way we can compare. Clearly Peronism was the victim.

The mass society, the inclusion, the redistribution of wealth like this country never had, the full employment level, the industrialisation that remain till today... Peronismo today represents argentine job, represents industry, but not big capitals, just Pymes, represents the poor, represents the national thing. Kirchnerismo is very Peronist.
 
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