Nobel peace prize awarded to Liu - left on empty chair

darmanad

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11966449
"China's new status entails increased responsibility. China must be prepared for criticism, and regard it as a positive, as an opportunity for improvement," said Thorbjorn Jagland. "

Mr Liu, one of China's leading dissidents, is serving an 11-year sentence in a jail in north-east China for state subversion. Kind of like Iran.
 
The craven and sanctimonious Norwegian Nobel Peace Prize committee in action:

For the record, Liu Xiaobo has stated publicly that in his view:
(a) China’s tragedy is that it wasn’t colonised for at least 300 years by a Western power or Japan. This would apparently have civilised it for ever;
(b) The Korean and Vietnam wars fought by the US were wars against totalitarianism and enhanced Washington’s ‘moral credibility’;
(c) Bush was right to go to war in Iraq and Senator Kerry’s criticisms were ‘slander-mongering’;
(d) Afghanistan? No surprises here: Full support for Nato’s war.
He has a right to these opinions, but should they get a peace prize?

The Norwegian jurist Fredrik Heffermehl argues that the committee is in breach of the will and testament left behind by the inventor of dynamite whose bequests fund the prizes: ‘The Nobel committee has not received prize money for free use, but was entrusted with money to give to the pivotal element in creating peace, breaking the vicious circle of arms races and military power games. From this point of view the 2010 Nobel is again an illegitimate prize awarded by an illegitimate committee.’

(Source)
 
bigbadwolf said:
The craven and sanctimonious Norwegian Nobel Peace Prize committee in action:



(Source)

Obama got one for nothing. Why not Liu who seems to have made some interesting statements but has been fighting China's human rights violations for years.
 
jaredwb said:
Obama got one for nothing. Why not Liu who seems to have made some interesting statements but has been fighting China's human rights violations for years.

Obama, Kissinger, Liu. What meaning does the prize have? Would the Norwegians ever have the balls, for instance, to award it to some American dissident who protested over Guantanamo, rendition, and the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan? I doubt it.
 
A state's restrictions on the rights of individuals, movements and parties to openly criticize the current economic system may be considered by some good or bad depending on how aligned they are with the state's economic system. People aligned with the government point of view may not object to lengthy prison terms for nothing more than the free expression of ideas contrary to the "party line." Of course, in a society without a free press the state's point of view is sure to prevail and most will be coerced into alignment.

Others believe there should be no state restriction on open criticism for politcal economic views not aligned with the state's economic system. These people do not believe in imprisonment for those who do no more than freely express their ideas.

Which system of state governance do you prefer? Imprisonment or no imprisonment for the free expression of ideas?

The quotes attributable to Liu by poster BBW come from a Tariq Ali piece (see linked source, a reprint from the original) appearing in the London Review Blog. Tarik, himself, manages to comfortably combine a virulent anti-west, Marxist socioeconomic, pro-Chavez philosophy with a successful, entreprenurial career as author and film maker that has allowed him to enjoy a privileged residence in London's Highgate area.

Some of the commentators at the London Review Blog source question the accuracy of the statements attributable to Liu by Tarik. Some assert that the alleged statements may be inexact hyperbole, because Tarik, himself, doesn't furnish sources. But more importantly, whether Liu actually said these things or whether his political views could correctly be described as pro-capitalist, pro-west, or neo-conservative, it is not determinative of his worthiness for the award.

One commentator correctly observes:
Tariq Ali is particularly wrong when he asks: ‘He has a right to these opinions, but should they get a peace prize?’ It is evident that the prize was not given for these opinions, but for his struggle for human rights. I think his mistaken views do not destroy his merits as a peaceful activist for democracy and human rights in China.
http://networkedblogs.com/bKTQ0

Another commentator observes that:
Mr. Ali would like this piece to be about the illegitimacy of the Nobel committee, because that’s a banal enough statement to be correct. Instead, the glaring dishonesty shows again that Mr. Ali sheds solidarity with prisoners under authoritarian regimes when their politics differ from his own.
http://networkedblogs.com/bKTQ0


Liu Xiaobo is serving an 11 year jail sentence for nothing more than speech critical of his government. His acceptance statement in absentia underscores the importance of a free press and freedom of expression, freedoms that are self-evidently absent in China:
"Freedom of expression is the foundation of human rights, the source of humanity, and the mother of truth. To strangle freedom of speech is to trample on human rights, stifle humanity, and suppress truth."

In his own piece critical of the committee's selection of Liu, Tarik Ali himself concedes the point that Liu's imprisonment is a blow to free speech:
"This year the Chinese government were foolish to make a martyr of the president of Chinese PEN and neo-con Liu Xiaobo. He should never have been arrested, but the Norwegian politicians who comprise the committee, led by Thorbjørn Jagland, a former Labour prime minister, wanted to teach China a lesson."

Can it possibly be that China needs to be taught the lesson.

p.s. If Norway shared China's restrictive laws on freedom of expression, then BBW could be jailed for his post were he ever to step foot in Norway. Not a happy state of affairs.
 
darmanad said:
One commentator correctly observes:
Tariq Ali is particularly wrong when he asks: ‘He has a right to these opinions, but should they get a peace prize?’ It is evident that the prize was not given for these opinions, but for his struggle for human rights. I think his mistaken views do not destroy his merits as a peaceful activist for democracy and human rights in China.

This is a trifle disingenuous. Suppose Liu, in addition to (legitimately) criticising China's record, also criticised USA's double standards and how it uses "human rights" as a selective instrument of foreign policy (for example, by attacking China's record but staying mum about Saudi Arabia's record). Or if Liu had criticised the USA's developing global gulag. Would the Norwegians then have had the cojones to award Liu the prize? I rather doubt it. The prize is being awarded as a slap in the face to the Chinese by Norwegian vassals eager to stay on the right side of their American overlord. Liu's criticism of the Chinese record is but a pretext.
 
bigbadwolf said:
This is a trifle disingenuous. Suppose Liu, in addition to (legitimately) criticising China's record, also criticised USA's double standards and how it uses "human rights" as a selective instrument of foreign policy (for example, by attacking China's record but staying mum about Saudi Arabia's record). Or if Liu had criticised the USA's developing global gulag. Would the Norwegians then have had the cojones to award Liu the prize? I rather doubt it. The prize is being awarded as a slap in the face to the Chinese by Norwegian vassals eager to stay on the right side of their American overlord. Liu's criticism of the Chinese record is but a pretext.
I would like to think that the Norwegians would have given the prize regardless of what other political positions Liu advocated. But posing your question hardly constitutes a convincing reply to the criticism of Tarik's piece by the commentator.
Do your anti-American and anti-capitalist beliefs, many of which I and other US expats share, prevent you from conceding the validity of this award? Why not join in the condemnation of the Chinese government's policies that deny its own citizens a free press and freedom of expression. Why not join in the condemnation of jailing a citizen for 11 years for nothing more than criticsm of his government's economic policies? Are you so biased by your anti-American, anti-capitalist beliefs that you cannot even condemn the totalitarian-like repression exercised by the Chinese state in Liu's case? A Chinese state, by the way, that like Russia before it is slowly but surely becoming more capitalistic each passing day as did the former Soviet puppet states, Cuba, Vietnam, etc. Where has Marxist Leninist Stalinist socialism endured and prospered?

Since when is Norway a US vassal? Your choice of words strikes me as way too ideological and unrealistic. But then, I haven't swallowed ideological elixir as you apparently have.
 
darmanad said:
prevent you from conceding the validity of this award?

Do you read or understand what other people post? Or are you as usual engaged in just shouting out other people? Of course I question the award. Just as I questioned awarding it to Obama and Kissinger.

Why not join in the condemnation of the Chinese government's policies that deny its own citizens a free press and freedom of expression. Why not join in the condemnation of jailing a citizen for 11 years for nothing more than criticsm of his government's economic policies?

Because it hypocritical bullsh!t, that's why. When it suits the West, it turns a blind eye to human rights abuses -- e.g., those of Saddam during the '80s; when it's expedient, it brings them up ("Saddam tortured the Kurds!"). Why are China's policies under the microscope and not Saudi Arabia or Colombia or other US client states.

Why are you using Western values to judge non-Western societies? It's Western hubris to call them universal. Typical liberal bollocks. And values which the West, in its hypocrisy, usually does not live up to itself.

Are you so biased by your anti-American, anti-capitalist beliefs that you cannot even condemn the totalitarian-like repression exercised by the Chinese state in Liu's case? A Chinese state, by the way, that like Russia before it is slowly but surely becoming more capitalistic each passing day as did the former Soviet puppet states, Cuba, Vietnam, etc. Where has Marxist Leninist Stalinist socialism endured and prospered?

First of all, I'm not "anti-American" or "anti-capitalist." Stop ascribing false positions to other people and learn to write more responsibly. I am talking realpolitik. You, as is your wont, are just arguing for the sake of arguing, and confusing the issue.

Since when is Norway a US vassal? Your choice of words strikes me as way too ideological and unrealistic. But then, I haven't swallowed ideological elixir as you apparently have.

I don't think you would understand. And frankly it's a waste of time getting involved with you in your interminable hair-splitting discussions that go nowhere. Now go and submit another twelve posts on the moslem threat.
 
bigbadwolf said:
Do you read or understand what other people post? Or are you as usual engaged in just shouting out other people? Of course I question the award. Just as I questioned awarding it to Obama and Kissinger.
Yes, I think I have understood what you have written. Others will judge whether that is so. What you've written here isn't that complicated or intellectually challenging although, as usual, it is laced with so much ideological hyberbole as to be mind numbing. Have I been shouting? Again, other people can judge for themselves, but frankly I think it is you who writes acrimonious bombast.
We are not discussing the award to Obama or Kissinger. Does bringing that up help you to condemn the committee per se? I thought we were arguing over its selection of Liu. Can you stay on point?



bigbadwolf said:
Because it hypocritical bullsh!t, that's why. When it suits the West, it turns a blind eye to human rights abuses -- e.g., those of Saddam during the '80s; when it's expedient, it brings them up ("Saddam tortured the Kurds!"). Why are China's policies under the microscope and not Saudi Arabia or Colombia or other US client states.
Now I wonder whether you understood what I wrote. No one is denying that there are human rights abuses all across the sociopolitical spectrum...except you. The point is not what other governments do, but what China did.[/quote]

bigbadwolf said:
Why are you using Western values to judge non-Western societies? It's Western hubris to call them universal. Typical liberal bollocks. And values which the West, in its hypocrisy, usually does not live up to itself..
Why do I use so-called "Western" values to judge China? You pose that question just like the stereotypical, newborn politically-correct, holier-than-thou, ethical-relativist-when-it-comes-to-somethings (talk about hypocrisy)! But thanks for asking who am I to judge other societies. I'll tell you, BBW. It is because I believe in the individual's right of free speech - what most sane folks consider to be a basic human right. I believe that is it wrong to to jail someone for exercising what ought to be his right to freely express his political ideas. I don't deny that western societies do not always live up to their own espoused values, but that is not the point. Two wrongs don't make a right and you just can't bring yourself to condemn something as grossly repressive as Liu's treatment because you happen to disagree with his politics.



bigbadwolf said:
First of all, I'm not "anti-American" or "anti-capitalist." Stop ascribing false positions to other people and learn to write more responsibly. I am talking realpolitik. You, as is your wont, are just arguing for the sake of arguing, and confusing the issue.
You could have fooled me. Does your realpolitik analysis mutually exclude what I have perceived to be virulently anti-west, anti-capitalist positions? Is your lack of an ethical stand against imprisonment for free speech a manifestation of your realpolitik?
Sorry, but in this case I am arguing with you simply because I disagree with your and Tarik Ali's stated position on the Noble award to Liu.



bigbadwolf said:
I don't think you would understand. And frankly it's a waste of time getting involved with you in your interminable hair-splitting discussions that go nowhere. Now go and submit another twelve posts on the moslem threat.
As usual, a personal insult. Do you really think that anyone with a sixth grade reading level will be swayed by such puerile remarks? If you thought it was important enough to post an argument decrying the Noble committee's award decsion, why not stick around to further substantiate your position. You wouldn't be afraid of a little give and take , would you?
Or would you, you big bad lamb.
 
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