Question About Mercorsur Overstay With Expired Passport

steveinbsas

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Earlier this afternoon I spoke with a woman who is from Venezuela. She told me she entered Argentina about four months ago and received a 90 day visa which has expired. So has the Venezuelan passport with which she entered. I am not sure why she cannot renew her Venezuelan passport.

She has a Brazilian passport which is valid but it has no entry stamp for Argentina. She wants to get an Argentine DNI and is waiting for her penales antecendentes from Venezuela. She asked me if she should go to Uruguay to get a new 90 day visa. I told her I didn't think that would be a good idea and that I would post about her situation, knowing it was different from the non-mercosur expats who have dealt with expired 90 day visas. Apparently, all she needs to apply for her DNI in Argentina is the criminal report from Venezuela. She hasn't lived in Brazil for many years (decades).

She is also concerned about traveling by bus in Argentina in January. She plans to use her Brazilian passport but is concerned because it has no entry stamp. I told her I didn't think that would be a problem (buying a bus ticket) because she wouldn't be crossing an international border. I also told her I would post about her situation here. Comments from anyone with additional information/insights will be greatly appreciated.
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Rich One

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To Extend her 90 day visa at Migraciones, must present a valid passport. Conclusion Renew the Venezuelan Passport. Should take a week if no other impediments ...?
 

ben

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1. AFAIK the overstay situation is the same for Mercosur and non-Mercosur, only the fine is cheaper for Mercosur.
2. When applying for (permanent) DNI I had overstayed for a long while, this was not an issue at all. If she is not planning on leaving the country, and does not need to perform any tramites here that require legal residency, why not just wait?
3. The vast majority of activity here - including, presumably, domestic travel - will not require an entry stamp. A valid Brazilian passport should be more than enough.
 

steveinbsas

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To Extend her 90 day visa at Migraciones, must present a valid passport. Conclusion Renew the Venezuelan Passport. Should take a week if no other impediments ...?

Even if she could renew her Venezuelan passport in the next week, I wonder if she can "extend" a 90 visa that expired more than 30 days earlier.

She just sent me a message that the embassy website for renewing the Venezuelan passport asks for an Argentine DNI.

That doesn't make any sense to me. I wonder if going there in person would make a difference.
 

BaltRochGirl

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You don't need a DNI to renew your passport for the US, so I can't imagine why you would be required to have one for other countries, makes no sense to me either, the two are unrelated.

Don't know about renewing an passport with an expired visa though, and she would need to make sure she got the passport back as they want to see the entrance stamp regardless of what the computers may provide, have never left without them searching for and finding that stamp, overstay or regular, even after getting a new passport here, he checked my old one for the stamp.

I don't think Uruguay will matter as many people have stated that they applied for residency with an expired tourist visa, and she would still have to deal with the overstay before going though I believe the fine is less for mercosur.
 

Rich One

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1. AFAIK the overstay situation is the same for Mercosur and non-Mercosur, only the fine is cheaper for Mercosur.
2. When applying for (permanent) DNI I had overstayed for a long while, this was not an issue at all. If she is not planning on leaving the country, and does not need to perform any tramites here that require legal residency, why not just wait?
3. The vast majority of activity here - including, presumably, domestic travel - will not require an entry stamp. A valid Brazilian passport should be more than enough.

1. Yes only $300 pesos
2. Better wait.
3 Brazil passport OK

A Venezuelan citizen must be able to renew or replace a passport at the Venezuelan Consulate...! Bad Information..!

DNI only for Argentina Residents , Other present Cedula de Identidad. Venezolana

http://argentina.embajada.gob.ve/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2494%3Aexpedicion-yo-renovacion-de-pasaportes-para-mayores-de-edad&catid=23%3Atramites-consulado-buenos-aires&Itemid=80&lang=es
 

Girino

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Even if she could renew her Venezuelan passport in the next week, I wonder if she can "extend" a 90 visa that expired more than 30 days earlier.

She just sent me a message that the embassy website for renewing the Venezuelan passport asks for an Argentine DNI.

That doesn't make any sense to me. I wonder if going there in person would make a difference.

The Italian embassy supports their citizens abroad only if they are resident there. I.e. I can't get my passport renewed at the Italian consulate in Buenos Aires until I tell them that I am a resident of Argentina (thus having a DNi proves this) and they will update my record as being a resident abroad and provide me with this consular service (document issuance). (I am not doing this because it has more drawbacks than benefits.)

I suppose your friend is in the same situation. Leaving Venezuela with just 4 months left on her passport was not a smart move. Why didn't she enter on her Brazilian one?!

As for the stamp, I think that if she shows both passports, the official will understand. And for national travels there is no need to prove your immigration status, especially if traveling by bus.

PS: having the DNI also proves that you are truly a resident of Argentina, not just a tourist claiming to live abroad to be tax exempt.
PPS: of course, if my passport get stolen in BsAs, in this case is considered an emergency and they will issue me a document to be able to fly home.
 

ben

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The Italian embassy supports their citizens abroad only if they are resident there. I.e. I can't get my passport renewed at the Italian consulate in Buenos Aires until I tell them that I am a resident of Argentina (thus having a DNi proves this) and they will update my record as being a resident abroad and provide me with this consular service (document issuance). (I am not doing this because it has more drawbacks than benefits.)

I suppose your friend is in the same situation. Leaving Venezuela with just 4 months left on her passport was not a smart move. Why didn't she enter on her Brazilian one?!

As for the stamp, I think that if she shows both passports, the official will understand. And for national travels there is no need to prove your immigration status, especially if traveling by bus.

PS: having the DNI also proves that you are truly a resident of Argentina, not just a tourist claiming to live abroad to be tax exempt.
PPS: of course, if my passport get stolen in BsAs, in this case is considered an emergency and they will issue me a document to be able to fly home.

And if you register here and then have your passport stolen in New York, they'll only issue an emergency document... to fly to Italy??

To insist on knowing where you reside for tax purposes, OK. But to not provide consular assistance, to any citizen, for any reason?! This sounds... nutty.
 

Girino

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And if you register here and then have your passport stolen in New York, they'll only issue an emergency document... to fly to Italy??

To insist on knowing where you reside for tax purposes, OK. But to not provide consular assistance, to any citizen, for any reason?! This sounds... nutty.

If I register as a resident of Argentina and my passport get stolen in the US, I can go to the nearest consulate in the US and be issued a travel document (it's an emergency!) and then in Argentina I can have my passport done. I am not sure if they are able to issue regular passports under emergency situations (i.e. valid for 10 years) - they might be able to issue a short-term passport. Luckily I have never had the necessity to know - and I hope it will stay the same.


The reasons behind this are various, and I am not sure if citizen of the US have a similar thing. I'll try to explain to the best of my knowledge, though there is not much clarity beyond these matters, so don't take this for granted.

First of all, they should staff the consulate proportionally to the resident population of that country.
Second, the consular authorities don't want to step on officials back home, as the system proved to be unequal and people abused it in the past (i.e. if they know that abroad they don't check certain things, or that they are more lax or faster, people will start seeking help abroad, clogging the consulate).
Third, for tax purposes, some Italians have been known for faking residency abroad in order to avoid paying taxes in Italy. I follow the Italian equivalent of the Financial Times and there are cases of Italian citizens who reported to be living in China to benefit of exemptions, but then they failed to prove to have a stable housing in China (a rental contract or the possession), in fact, they merely traveled to China on job trips but they still had wife and kids in Italy, a house in Italy, etc. On another account, your residency for tax purpose in Italy does not coincide with your civil registry residency. There are THREE kind of residency in Italy: the civil one (anagrafe), the fiscal one (fiscale) and the fiscal domicile (domicilio fiscale, which is different from the residency). I have a friend whose husband works in Switzerland, she still lives and work in Italy, he pays taxes in Switzerland and then has to pay the difference to Italy because his family is still in Italy. So basically he is working abroad and paying taxes like if he never moved.

That said, if you fail to register that you live abroad, there is no fine. It is unlawful, but there is no sanction....

Since I come from a complicated nation, some of the cons I foresee are:
  1. I'd lose national health service coverage, except for emergencies (ER), which is free and accessible to anybody, Italian or not. To take it away takes one day, to get it back it takes 6 months. This is not very relevant for me right now, since I can afford to pay for private health insurance here. However, if I had to undergo a major surgery, I'd still pick the Italian public health system over the Argentine private one (in some areas of Italy, it is excellent and you can pick where to go depending on your needs and it is free).
  2. I'd pay more on my car possession tax (I still have a car in Italy, I wasn't able to sell it before leaving).
  3. I'd pay more on car insurance and it might be a problem to get a new insurance as a non-resident (not sure if it is even allowed).
  4. They would likely close my bank account (banks don't like non-residents since in Italy the bank withhold taxes on behalf of the State, and you would be the exception who requires more paperworks and manual handling with zero return for the extra work).
  5. I couldn't get a SIM phone card.
  6. To renew my driving license, I would have to pay a private doctor here in Argentina for the physical examination.
  7. When you report living abroad, the equivalent of the IRS is very likely to audit you, and taxes is one of the cloudiest matters in my country. Basically, you are always at fault, no matter how good your CPA. I still have to meet somebody saying "they have audited me and they found nothing", and this doesn't necessarily mean that the audited person purposefully hid something. Each local office of the IRS will give you a different treatment and approach and interpretation of the many tax codes, regulations, exceptions, etc. It is a nightmare.
The pros:
  • I could vote abroad (if the electoral card comes on time, which is not a given)
  • I could get my documents done abroad (passport lasts 10 yrs, so does the ID card, my driving licenses lasts 5 years, my health card lasts 10 years - so it is not much of a deal!)
----

I'll tell you a very clear example of the sort of bureaucratic abuse going on. When I had to register my marriage in Italy, I sent my mom to my Italian town hall to know what kind of translation / apostille / legalization was required, and they said that I had to go through the local consulate where the marriage took place (i.e. Buenos Aires), no other option.
At the same time, my husband sent his mother to his Italian town hall with the same request, and they said the original Spanish with a translation (by us was okay) would have sufficed, but that he had to come in person to his town hall to process such request. [Same region of Italy, different town!]

Since he was not planning in visiting Italy any soon, we decided to go through the consulate, though we knew they wouldn't assist us because neither of us is registered as an Italian living abroad at the consulate of Buenos Aires, we would figure as residents of Italy. I tried to book an appointment but the system didn't let me register (registration is mandatory to book an appointment). So I tried with my husband's details and he was able to register. Since they open bookings for the next 30 days only, and everything was - of course - booked, we waited for the midnight to be the first to book on the next 30th day available.

When it was finally our day, we went to the consulate 40 minutes in advance and they didn't let us enter because they allowed you in only 13 minutes (yes, thirteen) before your scheduled time. We thought they were working like a clockwork, we didn't complain and went for a coffee.
We came back later and the security guy said that only one of us could enter, since only one of us booked the appointment, though we explained that we were both Italian citizens and we wanted to register our marriage, so it made sense that the two us showed up. He was very firm, so we asked another security staff (a lady), she understood and let me enter.

[Don't US citizen have the right to enter their consulates?]

Despite our strict schedule - it was a time specified to the very minute, something like 11:18 AM - we had to wait for a hour since only two people were attending. We had to fill in a form requesting the marriage registration. It was something on the line: "I, John Doe, Italian citizen residing at...... married Jane Doe, a citizen of...., residing at..... on the [DATE] in [PLACE] and would like to have it registered in Italy."

My husband has double-citizenship, so our marriage certificate shows his Argentinian address (we were bound to marry in Vicente Lopez because of this). The consular officer started questioning us, and said "Why do two Italian citizens declaring to be living in Italy come up here for this transcript? If you live in Italy, you must do this in Italy!". So I explained that I asked my town hall and they said I had to do it through the relevant consulate. Then he asked why the heck we got married in Argentina and I said because we wanted my husband's Argentine family to attend, that we were staying here a few month to spend time with his family, and that we hadn't moved, hence our Italian addresses (phew!).

Then he looked at our marriage certificate, and said to my husband "How come that on your marriage certificate you result residing in Vicente Lopez, and in this very transcription from you declare to be residing in Italy?! HOW IS THAT?!". So my husband said that he has double citizenship, and that the Argentine people at the Registro Civil looked at his Argentine DNI and required his Argentine residency address to marry us in Vicente Lopez. It didn't make sense to marry on his Italian passport being a citizen of Argentina!

Now try to image this scene taking place at the US consulate.... if you can!


[sorry for the long post, I'm going ElQueso-ing! ;) ]
 

Bajo_cero2

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1) she has to show both passports, that's it.
2) regarding traveling, if she shows a passport with no entry, she can be arrested. Again, go to 1).
3) you cannot renew your passpirt when you escaped from criminal Courts (i didn't use the word justice).
 
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