Right Vs Left

antipodean

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Antiperonism are mainly rich, and, for example with Macri, retiree people that watch tv all day. High consumers of the media. That was his base. People that work, people that depend on the local market, are peronists. (Of course, generally talking).
PYMES were greatly beneffitted with the Ks, not only for this alliance I mentioned with Brazil, but because of thee growth of our internal market. Pymes are 70% of our labour market. The second presidnce of CFK was bumpy. Inflation, Cepo, etc. Not very good. But still, way better than Macris best year.

Socialism in Latin America is more linked with independence, sovereignty, development, as oposed to the gringos who come, destroy, and take everything. Its more a reaction to US capitalism than agree with the socialism cause.

I dont think unity ois possible right now. There is a tragic tie. Opposal interests. No one could win if the other one not loses. Impossible a win win situation. Thats the tragedy, its definition. One wants what the other dont. 100% oposal directions. There si no national project, as other Latam countries, Chile, for instance. The Unions are strong, el campo too, they both are going to defend their posture. There is no other stage, that synthesize this. Only movement. Only time.

Interesting.

Seems that Peronism feeds on ignorance. Don't think. Don't question. Don't listen... The Nazis were the same.

I am a PYME owner and I am a Gringo.

I found Santa Fe under the socialists truly welcoming. More than elsewhere under Peronism / K. During the socialist years of Santa Fe a lot of progress was made in making the province function efficiently and also complete some really good and high quality public infrastructure including many hospitals and schools that would put even those in CABA to shame.

The only benefit I had under K was avoiding competition and subsidies - productivity was rock bottom (as it is today) compared to any other country on earth and costs are sky high. They give PYMEs just enough to hang on, but that is it. We cannot import technology or materials from abroad and this limits innovation and the ability to open new revenue streams, etc. I cannot use an Argentine company as a vehicle to invest abroad or run a regional operation from here because of capital controls, etc - meaning less jobs for Argentines and less USD for Argentina.

Will also point out that with over 25,000 PYMEs having closed their doors for good in CABA alone, I think PYME support for Peronists is waning. Given most people in my social circles are PYME owners, I have yet to find one who is actually Peronists - the only thing they like are subsidies and dare I say the "shortcuts" (wink wink) that present themselves under Peronist administrations (and don't even get me started about the efficiency of administering these - employees only got April ATPs last week.)

I do realize this is the myth/ image / ideal Peronism would like to portray, but as someone said earlier, the facts speak for themselves and it does not do any favours to Argentina or Argentines.
 

Matiasba

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Thank you for your extensive contribution. Just a couple of points:
1) since the last dictatorship, Peronism was in power for roughly 75% of the time. Regardless where you stand politically, it is clearly not working. And at one point they should also take a bit of responsibility
2) what also clearly is not working for Argentina is the economic protectionism which dates back even longer. So as you state correctly, the industry here is not competitive. But rather than to make it more competitive, your view is to take this as granted and try to protect the market even more. Question is: who is going to create jobs now, especially after this crisis? What kind of jobs do you want to protect if there are no jobs left?
3) you also imply that international companies per definition are something bad. Why is that? I am fortunate enough to work remotely for a European company here. But if i ever had to go to a local job here, why would it be something bad to work for an international company? Normally they pay better, have better benefits etc.

my view is that Argentina at one point should get more competitive, that it has to open up. Buenos Aires is the stand out city in South America, the people are still relatively well educated, and economically it cant get much worse (salaries in USD terms are low)


1) the 90s peronism wasnt in fact peronism. They did the exact opposite of historic peronism, they did everything ANTI peronist. In fact, the whole spectrum of historical antiperonist political actors, supported them. They used the party to get to power and then do the exact opposite they said in campaign. And given that we came from hiperinflation and took it down to zero in two years, poor people voted for them. But that was not magic, we paid a huge cost, and still do it today.
2) protectionism is Argentinas model. Same as Brazil. Opposite to Chile, opposite to Mexico, for instance. With Brazil as partners, we can in some level avoid the necessity of import. That worked for some time. Now not. They should have made that alliance stronger. There were huge oportunities and that did not happen. Now its almost impossible, but with time who knows.
Regarding the jobs. It wont be easy, we know. But it will be better than now. Or the last years. The jobs will have to come from the exterior, clearly, some good investment to put us in movement.
3) international companies come, do the money and take it home. They do their bussiness, do not employ THAT much, and they take the money to never return it, or re invest it, or grow, or believe in the country. Same as big local companies. They take advantage of local market, and when the bad cycle begins, run away. Furthermore, because of their size, in some way, they provoke this crisis.

Im not friend of the open up thing. We did it several times. All of them with catastrofic results (the last was Macris).
Im confident though, in our internal force, I will give a chance to someone with good ideas, as this government supposed to be.
 

Jeremias

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Antiperonism are mainly rich, and, for example with Macri, retiree people that watch tv all day. High consumers of the media. That was his base. People that work, people that depend on the local market, are peronists.

independence, sovereignty, development, as oposed to the gringos who come, destroy, and take everything. Its more a reaction to US capitalism than agree with the socialism cause.

People who work in the private sector are Peronists? It depends, notably on their salary, age, location...

You're aware that on this forum, there probably are many "gringos" registered? Maybe you should distinguish between bad and good gringos?

You might also be aware that gringo is a rather xenophobic, and outdated term. Plus, this is not a word Argentines usually pronounce. It is a Mexican word, mainly, and to use it outside of Mexico, is a bit incorrect.
 

Matiasba

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This is what every authoritarian government says. It's never we are authoritarian because we like power and want more of it, but because it's necessary to fight "the enemy" whoever that might be.


To justify or not authoritarism, all you have to do is to take a look of the balance of forces, look both sides. And of course the results of this tension.
And yes, always there are people on the other side making things happen. Its not natural, spontaneous, this things are never an accident.
 

antipodean

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Im not friend of the open up thing. We did it several times. All of them with catastrofic results (the last was Macris).
Im confident though, in our internal force, I will give a chance to someone with good ideas, as this government supposed to be.

What exactly was "open" during Macri years? (Other than the dollar?)

I am curious to know if you have lived abroad in a developed country in the last 20 years to serve as a point of first hand comparison. If not, I can probably understand your perspective since it was the most "open" Argentina has been in many years, but would encourage you to expand your horizons.
 

Matiasba

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If i were a jew (Amia), or a fiscal, i would probably see that differently ... And i really fail to see the similarities between Macri and a military dictatorship (other than they are both not peronists)

NB: i also believe that high level government corruption under Macri was far lower than during the Kirchner years. They even managed to get some public works done. Admittedly the standard that Kirchner set in terms of corruption is definitely hard to beat


Macri had the same economic project, ideas, plan, gen, than the dictatorship. The context were different, of course, but they went in the same direction.
How you compare corruption under K vs corruption under Macri? Clarin?
 

Matiasba

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What exactly was "open" during Macri years? (Other than the dollar?)

I am curious to know if you have lived abroad in a developed country in the last 20 years to serve as a point of first hand comparison. If not, I can probably understand your perspective since it was the most "open" Argentina has been in many years, but would encourage you to expand your horizons.

Apertura comercial?
interest rate?

you dont think in the last 4 years he did try to move on with another model than 2010 to 2015? to explore posibilities? talking about intentions, we all now how it ended
 

antipodean

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Macri had the same economic project, ideas, plan, gen, than the dictatorship.
"Now, Peronism has, besides this huge bizarre propaganda element, a GREAT dose of authoritarism when in power. One may say its necessary to fight againts that enemy (90% of the media, etc), or to run a country relatively in peace given the power the other part has. "

And Peronism has the same political projects as the dictatorship? Tools like propaganda, authoritarianism, trying to silence the media, using misinformation, sewing the seeds of division and hatred, aggravating external conflicts, creating internal enemies, using "militantes" to do the dirty work, covering up internal crimes, corruption etc. Two wrongs never create a right.
 

antipodean

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I dont think so. Where did I say that?
Um. "Antiperonism are mainly rich, and, for example with Macri, retiree people that watch tv all day. High consumers of the media. That was his base. People that work, people that depend on the local market, are peronists. (Of course, generally talking)."

If "Peronists" are not high consumers of the media, where do they get their information from and how much information do they get to digest?
 
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