The Argentine Universities' Debt To Their Country.

[Noesdeayer]

I was waiting for some respected Argentine personality to say publicy what I, a foreign resident, have been saying in private for a long time.
Beatriz Sardo.said it today."La deuda de la universidad argentina es incorporar sectores mas bajos que los de la elite".
Argentine Universities' debt is to incorporate lower sectores (of its socieyt) than the elite".
.In a report in last Sunday's Clarin on the sorry state of Argentine public education we read that no more than 43% finish secondary school.What good does it do the other 57% that their state university system is "free"? Will they ever benefit from it?
Moreover,of those students who do,in fact ,go to the UBA how many are a product of private secondary education and how many are graduates of the public school system? As I have mentiones before a good alternative is on the job training given the rather poor syllabus and teacher preparation mentioned in the Clarin article.
To use an Argentine phrase,"Las Papas Queman" ---The French Fries Are Burning Already.

 

[Ries]

I think you are right, that it is the responsibility of state schools to get more lower income students in, and graduate.
"debt" is not the word I would use- in english.

I do think that the basic idea of the fifteen or so new colleges that the last government started is a good one- most are more like community colleges in the USA, with shorter degree programs in practical trades.

whether they are being managed well is certainly a subject for discussion, but I have extensive experience hiring graduates from community college 2 year AA degrees in the US, and think it is a valuable addition to the 4 year university system.

The programs at places like San Martin are specifically trades programs, aimed to get people jobs, and they are aimed at lower income students.
In my experience, thats a good thing.

 

[Noesdeayer]

Ries:
My main point is that Argentine public primary and secondary education must be drastically improved before thinking about any type of university.
Beatriz Sardo used the word "deuda" or debt.She might have used the word "desafio"-challenge.However,she did not.I interpret that as her wanting to convey it is,indeed,a debt that she feels Argentine universities owe their society and I translate it as exactly that.
The 15 or so "Flor de Ceibo" colleges are a matter for separate discussion as is the manner the Kirchnerists had is appointing party loyalists to plum university administration positions.Undoubtedly there do exist trades programs such as the one you mentioin and these are indeed laudable.
Maybe the UBA can initiate some kind of intensive course for lower income students.However.I would think that she is probably correct in thinking that the majority of UBA students come from the higher income sectors..

 

[UK Man]

Is it not the case anyone can get a university place as long as they finish secondary? If so University drop out rates must be very high.

 

[Noesdeayer]

UK Man.
Right.As long as they FINISH secondary.Unfortunately, about 57% of public secondary students DO NOT finish .They are drop outs.
Something must be done to remedy this situation.I believe that this is the reason Beatriz Sardo said that it is a "debt" the university system has with society.
To improve public secondary education so that a decent majority do in fact graduate and are able to go on to a "free" university.

 

[Ries]

I still say the flor de ceibo colleges ARE something being done.
I would assume Macri will be appointing new people to run them.

But the basics still apply- shorter courses in more practical subjects, closer to where poor people live-
this addresses many of the issues that make it hard for poor kids to get into, and finish, at schools like UBA.

Average courses at UBA often take 5 to 7 years to get degrees in, Law and Medicine are often closer to 10 years.
One reason that so many of the grads are middle and upper class is that they can afford to either live in Central, or commute, and not work full time, for so many years.
Poor people need schools outside Gen La Paz, where they live.
They need degrees that can be finished in less time, and that can lead to jobs immediately.

This is the model for trade schools and community colleges in the US and Europe, and it works.
I have hired probably 20 to 40 kids from programs like this in the last 30 years. (in the USA- we have only had a few short term interns from UBA here)

Right now, students in these schools in Argentina are getting degrees in practical trades, that will lead to jobs.

Certainly, I agree that the Federal Government should institute policies that get more kids completing secondary, and more of them getting into UBA.

I have several friends who teach at UBA, and other universities, public and private.
The administrations are in control, directed from higher up.
The individual professors, and even department chairs (I know a few) have zero ability to change this.
Class sizes are huge, and individual attention by teaching staff is small, by design.
Dropout rates, regardless of income, are high.
Attrition rates of 80% over 4 years is not uncommon at UBA- in fact, in certain ways, the system is designed to achieve that.
They make you work really hard.
I have known a few poor people who make it thru, including one single mother- but it requires drive and dedication, and takes more than the 4 years US colleges assume.

 

[Ries]

UK Man.
Right.As long as they FINISH secondary.Unfortunately, about 57% of public secondary students DO NOT finish .They are drop outs.
Something must be done to remedy this situation.I believe that this is the reason Beatriz Sardo said that it is a "debt" the university system has with society.
To improve public secondary education so that a decent majority do in fact graduate and are able to go on to a "free" university.

how does UBA improve secondary education?

 

[Noesdeayer]

Ries:
My congratulations. Your above post is a very clear,concise and true analysis.
UBA can help by being a strong motivating force and example in Argentine public education in making their own degrees shorter and with real "salida laboral". :Besides being a whole lot less politicized.
If this is done right,the UBA student body should become less representative of the elite who can "afford...to not work full time for so many years".as you have correctly said and more representative of the entire tax paying Argentine population.
You've got to start somewhere and stop putting the cart- "university degree -el titulo" before the horse-primary and secondary educatioin.
This would be an across the board incentive to educators and students alike and help "stop the rot" in Argentine public ed.

 

[UK Man]

UK Man.
Right.As long as they FINISH secondary.Unfortunately, about 57% of public secondary students DO NOT finish .

I believe the UK figure is around 35% which I must admit is much lower than I thought. So the 57% here doesn't look too bad considering the state of the country.

 

[Ries]

the US rate is 82%, but I dont think its as strict as the Argentine graduation.
In most of america, its pretty easy to graduate. There are no national exams, and you get credit for sports, band, and a lot of subjects that are pretty impossible to fail if you just show up.
Many colleges do use SAT scores, but plenty do not, and there are state schools in most US States the will allow pretty much any high school grad, regardless of SAT scores, admittance.