Vaccines offer hope amid new wave in Argentina

Alpinista

Registered
Given that Argentina had one of the world's hardest and longest lockdowns (followed by one of the biggest GDP contractions), it is quite an achievement to end up at the bottom in this list, even behind Mexico and barely above Brazil (two countries, whose presidents basically ignored the existence of Covid)
 

FrankPintor

Registered
There are different ways of ranking countries, this is another now, using 6 indicators:

  1. Confirmed cases
  2. Confirmed deaths
  3. Confirmed cases per million people
  4. Confirmed deaths per million people
  5. Confirmed cases as a proportion of tests
  6. Tests per thousand people


Pretty much all the Latin American countries are clustered around the bottom (this ranking was just before the 2nd wave hit here), Brazil isn't included, but Argentina's score is over twice that of Mexico. I thought Argentina might be a special case with the national fixations on swapping viruses via asados and mate, bit it seems to be a general LatAm thing unfortunately.

In Argentina's case given that the CABA government is hell-bent on flattening the curve against the vertical axis, the next update of the scores is unlikely to be better.

I don't understand the repeated bleating about "one of the world's hardest and longest lockdowns" because, well, it wasn't. There was never a curfew (until the last, ignored, DNU), there was never a time when we couldn't get out. There were restrictions, certainly, for some time we could (in theory) only get out to do shopping, go to the doctor or chemist, but other than in some very particular cases, Argentina was never actually locked down. Compare with Chile (extended lockdowns with permission required to go outside, 2 hours per week), Ecuador (weekend curfews, nobody goes outside), or Peru (at one point, men and women could be out on alternate days, and nobody on Sundays, weird and didn't work anyway).
 

antipodean

Registered
I don't understand the repeated bleating about "one of the world's hardest and longest lockdowns" because, well, it wasn't. There was never a curfew (until the last, ignored, DNU), there was never a time when we couldn't get out. There were restrictions, certainly, for some time we could (in theory) only get out to do shopping, go to the doctor or chemist, but other than in some very particular cases, Argentina was never actually locked down. Compare with Chile (extended lockdowns with permission required to go outside, 2 hours per week), Ecuador (weekend curfews, nobody goes outside), or Peru (at one point, men and women could be out on alternate days, and nobody on Sundays, weird and didn't work anyway).
Tell that to my finance team and to those I know who are still fighting charges in court for being too far from home when taking the dog for a walk.
We took a direct hit that took a HUGE chunk of money out of my pocket - like countless other businesses that took a direct hit from the restrictions.
My operations in other countries in the region did not take a comparable hit since there was generally more "breathing room" throughout the year to operate in a basic way for more days and thus cover more costs - combined with more flexible rules for doing business.

When rankings consider the economic harm done by the measures taken by a government, this is where Argentina rapidly sinks because it just does not have the resilience to climb back as fast as other countries nor does it have the sanitary results to justify such a heavy cost - meaning it was all pretty much for nothing. This in turn weakens its sanitary response because the state has more to focus on than health to avoid people rioting and at the same time even less resources to finance hospitals, vaccines etc. One must remember Argentina is not a rich country as much as they like to boast that they are - financial resources are finite.

The reality is that the government has almost spent all of its budget for economic support measures such as REPROII for 2021 - and it is not even May, nor have we encountered the third wave yet as we will at this pace. This is because Argentina spent all of its money needlessly last year and at the same time axed its tax and other income bases resulting in even less money this year. Businesses and private individuals also spent all their money last year trying to bridge the gap meaning they are even more vulnerable in 2021 - thus have real incentives to flout sanitary regulations and further worsen the health situation. This reality doesn't fill me with much hope at all.
 
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Alpinista

Registered
I don't understand the repeated bleating about "one of the world's hardest and longest lockdowns" because, well, it wasn't. There was never a curfew (until the last, ignored, DNU), there was never a time when we couldn't get out. There were restrictions, certainly, for some time we could (in theory) only get out to do shopping, go to the doctor or chemist, but other than in some very particular cases, Argentina was never actually locked down. Compare with Chile (extended lockdowns with permission required to go outside, 2 hours per week), Ecuador (weekend curfews, nobody goes outside), or Peru (at one point, men and women could be out on alternate days, and nobody on Sundays, weird and didn't work anyway).
Were you here in Buenos Aires last year between end of March until let's say June / July? Public life came to a stand still, literally almost no traffic and economic activity. With the exception of supermarkets and pharamcies there was complete shut down. As an example, in April last year not a single car was produced in Argentina. After a month in lockdown our mother in law (who lives in the conurbano) dared to come to our house and she stayed with us for three months without basically leaving the house. My father in law had a special permit as an essential worker which he (ab)used to come to our house for the Sunday asado. And this went on until August (or so). And we were quite the fortunate ones as we have open space in our house, I don't even want to think about being locked in with young kids in department without terrace etc. Still in August / September there were big discussions whether outdoor activities such as a running in a park were permitted. (because obviously Kiciloff and the Fernandez' would have liked to lock down every one in for another year just to be sure). The economic activity came slowly back in spring. Schools? Closed for a full year. Travelling within the country? Impossible (remember some provinces closed their "borders" for months without having a single Covid case). It is true that after September / October the public life came back to life with restaurants opening etc. But if this is not a strict lockdown, I don't know what it could be.

Or can you name three countries that had a similar shutdown? (GDP contraction of 10%, one year schools closed, even domestic travelling prohibited)
 

jblaze5779

Registered
I don't understand the repeated bleating about "one of the world's hardest and longest lockdowns" because, well, it wasn't. There was never a curfew (until the last, ignored, DNU), there was never a time when we couldn't get out. There were restrictions, certainly, for some time we could (in theory) only get out to do shopping, go to the doctor or chemist, but other than in some very particular cases, Argentina was never actually locked down. Compare with Chile (extended lockdowns with permission required to go outside, 2 hours per week), Ecuador (weekend curfews, nobody goes outside), or Peru (at one point, men and women could be out on alternate days, and nobody on Sundays, weird and didn't work anyway).
wut? where were you for most of last year?
 

FrankPintor

Registered
Were you here in Buenos Aires last year between end of March until let's say June / July? Public life came to a stand still, literally almost no traffic and economic activity. With the exception of supermarkets and pharamcies there was complete shut down. As an example, in April last year not a single car was produced in Argentina. After a month in lockdown our mother in law (who lives in the conurbano) dared to come to our house and she stayed with us for three months without basically leaving the house. My father in law had a special permit as an essential worker which he (ab)used to come to our house for the Sunday asado. And this went on until August (or so). And we were quite the fortunate ones as we have open space in our house, I don't even want to think about being locked in with young kids in department without terrace etc. Still in August / September there were big discussions whether outdoor activities such as a running in a park were permitted. (because obviously Kiciloff and the Fernandez' would have liked to lock down every one in for another year just to be sure). The economic activity came slowly back in spring. Schools? Closed for a full year. Travelling within the country? Impossible (remember some provinces closed their "borders" for months without having a single Covid case). It is true that after September / October the public life came back to life with restaurants opening etc. But if this is not a strict lockdown, I don't know what it could be.

Or can you name three countries that had a similar shutdown? (GDP contraction of 10%, one year schools closed, even domestic travelling prohibited)
You're mixing up (I suppose deliberately) the terms shutdown, standstill, impossible to travel, none of which equate to lockown. And yes, I was here all of last year. Nobody, least of all me, is saying the last 12-13 months were easy, but we were not ever locked down. You obviously missed where I mentioned where strict and extended lockdowns have been in place, I'll repeat this one for you: in Chile, in phase 1, where outside of an early-morning "exercise" slot people are not allowed to set foot outside their doors without permission (check here: https://www.gob.cl/pasoapaso/, just FYI I didn't see mention of kids, pets, or frustrated people-in-law). That is a lockdown. Please do everyone a favour and check the definition of lockdown before pushing your false narrative again.
 

FrankPintor

Registered
Tell that to my finance team and to those I know who are still fighting charges in court for being too far from home when taking the dog for a walk.
We took a direct hit that took a HUGE chunk of money out of my pocket - like countless other businesses that took a direct hit from the restrictions.
My operations in other countries in the region did not take a comparable hit since there was generally more "breathing room" throughout the year to operate in a basic way for more days and thus cover more costs - combined with more flexible rules for doing business.

When rankings consider the economic harm done by the measures taken by a government, this is where Argentina rapidly sinks because it just does not have the resilience to climb back as fast as other countries nor does it have the sanitary results to justify such a heavy cost - meaning it was all pretty much for nothing. This in turn weakens its sanitary response because the state has more to focus on than health to avoid people rioting and at the same time even less resources to finance hospitals, vaccines etc. One must remember Argentina is not a rich country as much as they like to boast that they are - financial resources are finite.

The reality is that the government has almost spent all of its budget for economic support measures such as REPROII for 2021 - and it is not even May, nor have we encountered the third wave yet as we will at this pace. This is because Argentina spent all of its money needlessly last year and at the same time axed its tax and other income bases resulting in even less money this year. Businesses and private individuals also spent all their money last year trying to bridge the gap meaning they are even more vulnerable in 2021 - thus have real incentives to flout sanitary regulations and further worsen the health situation. This reality doesn't fill me with much hope at all.
This is from the CABA goverment website from June last year:

"If the dog lives in an apartment and is used to going for a walk to relieve itself, it can be taken out minimizing the time spent walking and contact with other people (as in any other situation), always maintaining preventive measures provided by health authorities".


There's obviously more to your story.

I mostly agree with your other comments, by the way. Argentina doesn't have a resilient economy, but while you might consider that it chose health over the economy, I don't think there was any choice to make.
 
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