Outcry as Milei rewrites Argentina’s history

[MilHojas]

‘Justification of dictatorship’: outcry as Milei rewrites Argentina’s history

Protesters to commemorate victims of 1976-1983 as human rights groups raise alarm over far-right president’s denialism

www.theguardian.com

Archived version

 

[carride]

Sounds like they want to justify the reason for past authoritarian regime so it will fine if they want to do it again.

 

[Johnny]

Sounds like they want to justify the reason for past authoritarian regime so it will fine if they want to do it again.

He's going to end up shooting himself in the foot, which should come as no surprise.

 

[FrankPintor]

I know relatively little about the topics of the dictatorship or the "dirty war", but even some extremely basic research, such as looking them up in Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War), is enlightening, and, even better, supplies a source for the estimated 30,000 murdered or disappeared, from https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB185/: "22,000 people murdered or disappeared by military between 1975 and 1978 according to secret Chilean intelligence report"...

"[T]hese lists include 'official' as well as 'non official' deaths. We got this from the Army Intelligence Battalion 601, located on Callao and Viamonte streets, which is under the Army Chief II of Intelligence at the Army general Command of the Chiefs of Staff of the Army. Those listed as NN are those unidentifiable corpses, almost 100% correspond to extremist individuals eliminated by "left hand," by the security forces. The tally of those killed and disappeared from 1975 up to date is 22,000. Luis Felipe Alemparte Diaz"

Given that democracy was restored in 1983, extrapolating the figure of 22,000 is reasonable, and that's where the figure of 30,000 comes from. It's not a made-up number, as our toddler-president and his cabal of dictatorship apologists imagine.

Trolling down's syndrome sufferers, singers, schoolteachers, and the like is one thing, trolling survivors and the families of the disappeared is a new low. There is simply no comparison between the terrorist attacks of the time, and the state-sponsored murder campaign.

 

[Quilombo]

Finally, the signal the markets have been waiting for! /s

 

[Alby]

It's not a made-up number, as our toddler-president and his cabal of dictatorship apologists imagine.

It's true. Not even the person who has admitted to making it up and the circumstances in which he made it up knows that it's not a made up number. (Mind you, there ought to be a record of that meeting with Dutch legislators somewhere in the annals of the Dutch's parliament's archives. Nobody is threatening to produce that as proof.)

As you say (elsewhere) the real number will, of course, never be known. The real numbers in these kind of situations never are.

At 30,000, that would put it at 10 times the number of murders committed by the Pinochet Regime (since we are relying on Wikipedia for our amateur sleuthing here), a smaller country of course, but a regime that lasted 2.5 times as long.

It would also mean, based on what Wikipedia tells us about Argentina's population size at the time, that 1 in every 900 people was murdered.

 

[Quilombo]

It's true. Not even the person who has admitted to making it up and the circumstances in which he made it up knows that it's not a made up number. (Mind you, there ought to be a record of that meeting with Dutch legislators somewhere in the annals of the Dutch's parliament's archives. Nobody is threatening to produce that as proof.)

As you say (elsewhere) the real number will, of course, never be known. The real numbers in these kind of situations never are.

At 30,000, that would put it at 10 times the number of murders committed by the Pinochet Regime (since we are relying on Wikipedia for our amateur sleuthing here), a smaller country of course, but a regime that lasted 2.5 times as long.

It would also mean, based on what Wikipedia tells us about Argentina's population size at the time, that 1 in every 900 people was murdered.

This literally reads like the kind of thing Holocaust deniers write, you know, "Just asking questions...".

 

[Alby]

It’s reasonable to question in this case. A landmark official inquiry after the events found between 8,000 and 9,000 victims, but said there might have been more. We can see for ourselves on the back of an envelope that its number is commensurate with what happened in a neighboring country. On the other hand, cables and other contemporary reporting during the events put the figure much higher. The highest number, 30,000, has since appeared without any apparent documentary evidence other than as a logical extrapolation from some of the reports from the time. Someone has long claimed that the number was invented and that he invented it and why he invented, and (more vaguely), when and where. But those now pushing him forward again haven’t backed his story up with the sort of evidence that ought not be too difficult to find if the story were true.

 

[SinPulgas]

It's true. Not even the person who has admitted to making it up and the circumstances in which he made it up knows that it's not a made up number. (Mind you, there ought to be a record of that meeting with Dutch legislators somewhere in the annals of the Dutch's parliament's archives. Nobody is threatening to produce that as proof.)

As you say (elsewhere) the real number will, of course, never be known. The real numbers in these kind of situations never are.

At 30,000, that would put it at 10 times the number of murders committed by the Pinochet Regime (since we are relying on Wikipedia for our amateur sleuthing here), a smaller country of course, but a regime that lasted 2.5 times as long.

It would also mean, based on what Wikipedia tells us about Argentina's population size at the time, that 1 in every 900 people was murdered.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you saying that the 30,000 number is true? You seem to go on to suggest that the number is very doubtful.

 

[Alby]

It goes like this:

Frank likes to provoke discussion on his pet topics by launching highly contestable claims in a way that suggests there is not, in fact, any possible contest of ideas. People tend to bite. He’s usually heard all the counter arguments before and is poised ready with his counter counter arguments. It’s often quite entertaining, if a little transparent.

It used to be Larreta and what he did to the teachers. Then it was Larreta and the car removal racket. Then it was just Larreta, Larreta, Larreta. Until Larreta, much to the relief of many (myself included) passed (predictably) away at the hands of Bullrich. Now it’s the turn of Milei, the toddler president.

I occasionally rise to the bait Frank puts out there by putting in a reply to whatever outlandish highly contestable argument he has just presented as inarguable and do so with a first sentence that reads:“It’s true”. Humoring him as if I am about to agree with him, but then going on to present the obvious counterpoints to his argument (which, to be fair, he usually knows are coming and is ready for). Or else, (more rarely) I humour myself, as I did during one of his Larreta rants, by following my “It’s true” introduction with a half hour video I found of some conspiracy nut claiming that Larreta and Maria Eugenia Vidal plotted with Osama Bin Laden in the late 90s here in Buenos Aires the attack on the World Trade Center. (He never thanked me for this by the way. It must have been music to his ears and eyes.)

Although, tonight, he does appear in his latest toddler president missive (this thread) to conclude that the 30,000 is real because it’s a logical extrapolation from the 1978 Chilean intelligence report, in a separate thread (where I chided him about his sudden definitive resolution of the matter based a single piece of information), he backs away from that somewhat but at the same time invites me to provide another way of looking at the evidence that is better than his mathematical extrapolation. Rather than continuing to derail the other thread, I chose to do so back here on this thread. And introducing the post with my customary, sarcastic, “It’s true”. Not because I believe 30,000 or any other number is true, but because I enjoy pretending for a second to agree with Frank before either not doing so, or instead posting information even more outlandish than anything he has been able to unearth to bolster his world view. I would love to know what our AI alter egos on the other website do with all this.

(I have no idea what is true in this case. There are reasonable grounds for believing any number between 9,000 and 30,000.)