American Business Student Wants To Know

[Matiasba]

No Nap, you don't understand. In order to be a Peronist, you have to be designated as one by Matías. So for example:

JD Perón, Evita, Cámpora, the Kirchners = peronists.

But

Celestino Rodrigo, Lopez Rega, Rucci, Cavallo, Menem, Duhalde = NOT peronists.

Incredibly, what you re saying is right.
See, Peronismo is just an illusion. There are clearly two types of Peronismos. This has been said here by me many times.
The left and the right. Thay have NOTHING in common. And by nothing I mean nothing. They are oposed, in fact. They only uses the name peronism just to get distincted from other parties like UCR or the militaries project.
I suggest you to check out (google, bibliography, whatever you want), to study a little bit the historical slogans of Peronismo, and how they developed in time. Compare the third peronismo with the two before, or with the Ks, if you will. Seriously. Youll find out that the 1975 government and the 90s by Menem were not in fact peronismo, since they dont have nothing in common with the first two. And were opposite. Nationalisation and expropriation cant be under the same umbrella than privatization.
The truth is that Peron while in exile set on the two wings, and once in government, in his last days, took part for the right. That explains Isabels decision, and Montoneros clandestinity. But every analyst will agree that the third Peron was very different from the first two -it was another world also.

 

[EdRooney]

... the 1975 government and the 90s by Menem were not in fact peronismo, since they dont have nothing in common with the first two.

That's one way to look at it. Another way (and I have Peronist friends who say this) is to say that the Kirchners and the Cámporas were not in fact Peronismo. So it becomes a useless word, transmitting no meaning.

If you take a more global perspective though (ditching the Argentine Exceptionalism), Peronism has done what all successful leftist parties do: they start out with progressive policies in favour of the masses, but once they become popular and institutionalised they jump the neoliberal ship as fast as they can. Examples abound: British Labour, PASOK in Greece, the Democratic Parties in Italy and the US, PRI in Mexico.... It's always the same story everywhere and Argentina's Peronism is no different.

And the Kirchners are the living example: they are Menemists that suddenly donned the populist hat to save their hides in 2003, but (just look at today's news: subsidy cuts and $10b in new debt) they rush to implement austerity at every opportunity.

 

[Matiasba]

That's one way to look at it. Another way (and I have Peronist friends who say this) is to say that the Kirchners and the Cámporas were not in fact Peronismo. So it becomes a useless word, transmitting no meaning.

If you take a more global perspective though (ditching the Argentine Exceptionalism), Peronism has done what all successful leftist parties do: they start out with progressive policies in favour of the masses, but once they become popular and institutionalised they jump the neoliberal ship as fast as they can. Examples abound: British Labour, PASOK in Greece, the Democratic Parties in Italy and the US, PRI in Mexico.... It's always the same story everywhere and Argentina's Peronism is no different.

And the Kirchners are the living example: they are Menemists that suddenly donned the populist hat to save their hides in 2003, but (just look at today's news: subsidy cuts and $10b in new debt) they rush to implement austerity at every opportunity.

I partially agree. The problem is that you cannot compare. For many reasons, when people talk of Peronismo, refers to the fisrts two periods (1946-1955). They were the strongest, the more radicals, the more revolutionaries. "Combatiendo al capital" is one of the phrases of the peronism anthem. It was Nacional Y Popular, it was keynesianism, it was industrialist, it was, and this is very important, in the post WW2, so important countries (except the US, who put a candidate to compete with Peron in elections, google Braden) were totally incapable of selling anything, world trade was totally dead, so for these latam countries started what we call ISI which means "Industrializacion por Sustitucion de Importaciones". First world was so deeply ruined that we had to make our stuff, pretty much what CFK is trying to do now, impulse national industry by restricting imports.
So, the thing is that politically, symbolically, economically, the first two peronismos where by far the most importants.

What happened later in the 70s and the 90s, is the right peronismo. There are lots of papers that I studied on how Menem set his campaign. He said one thing in the US and Europe, and the opposite thing in here. He talked about Revolucion productiva and salariazo here with a look like a caudillo, with historical reminisence of peronism and talk about selling everything abroad, privatization, reforma laboral, etc.
It was a poverty factory that ended, not by accident, in the worst crisis ever.

He played futbol during his campaign to the people, and ended playing golf with CEOs. Basically, he said one thing to win elections, and did the exact oposite. He used Peronism slogans and images to win the election and finally did the exact oposite.

About the Ks being menemistas, youre totally right, thats why I dont believe them that much. Theres a youtube video I posted here once of Nestor talking up of the privatization of YPF in 1999 and how important "will be to Santa Cruz, so we can develop and modernize the province"... they were menemistas, no doubt of that.

 

[EdRooney]

Mati, before you say it doesn't compare, you might want to do some brief reading on other similar parties. Personally I'd suggest starting with Labour in the UK. Check out their slogans after WWII when they implemented massive social programmes. Read the 1945 Labour Manifesto. I think you'll find Peronism is not all that different.

 

[Napoleon]

Juan Peron died on July 1st, 1974. Isabel was president for SIX MONTHS before January 1st 1975.

I don't understand why Mati keeps adjusting the timeline and this was my original point!!!

When people say "1976", just nod, no matter how much of a selective memory they seem to be displaying.

 

[pauper]

I'll go with the game the world loves & current crowd sourced opinions vs rounders & witterings from afar any day of the week.

Each to their own though...

tripadvisor isn't actually used by very many people - and those that do use it are either members of Catholic pedophile rings, irredentist peronistas, Republicans from Texas or all of the above. I talk about how crap tripadvisor is with the taxi drivers all the time, not that I bring it up mind you because it's so crap, but when I point out to them how crap it is they always agree with me.

 

[Dublin2BuenosAires]

tripadvisor isn't actually used by very many people - and those that do use it are either members of Catholic pedophile rings, irredentist peronistas, Republicans from Texas or all of the above. I talk about how crap tripadvisor is with the taxi drivers all the time, not that I bring it up mind you because it's so crap, but when I point out to them how crap it is they always agree with me.

Crappity crap crap. Crap. Crap

Rounders & Republicans. Kickball sucks duh. Crappity crap.

 

[EdRooney]

I just want to give a quick shout out to whoever it was that invented the 'Ignore' function on this website. You're welcome for roast goat chez Rooney anytime. Then again, I do wonder every once in a while why so many republican peronist cats like football and the pope... nah.

 

[Redpossum]

I do wonder every once in a while why so many republicans like football and the pope... nah.

(the above quote has been edited shamelessly for my own juvenile amusement)

Sexual symbolism. The pope was a bishop once, and we all know what "bashing the bishop" means. And football is an analogy for sweaty mansex. When that Republican is also a senator, this leads to an irresistible urge to solicit intimacy from strangers in the men's room at the airport. And then blame it on Satan.

 

[ajoknoblauch]

I thought we were talking of desaparecidos.

I thought we were talking euphemisms.