Are Our Criticisms of Argentine Legitimate?

ellbee said:
YOu are right but in order to change , the public needs to change
this is called democracy. once the public stops complaining and starts acting/expressing and try to change the corrupt system, then the government could change. other than that, yes, the public deserves what they get cause they dont do ANYTHING about it. they have the power to change instead of sitting down in front of a tv, watching the news and complain and not do anything about it.

if you dont like something - do something about it.
actions speak louder than words

I agree but I guess it the argument of which is first, sort of egg or chicken. My belief is that the corrupt politicians here pander to the underclass without really doing anything for them. In fact the number of poor people here have steadily increased over the last few decades in Argentina. What's needed is much better education. A better educated population would hopefully demand better leadership. Education has a lot to do with economic development as well. I believe the people of Argentina would respond and become more involved in making this a real democracy if given a chance. If you look at history the countries that have developed strong institutions and a vibrant democracy have tended to do so over time. Unfortunately, compared to today Argentina was in a good position a 100 years ago but has gone dreadfully in the wrong direction since. I don't know what it will take to change things here, my own personal opinion is that it may take a complete melt-down to force change.
 
Many interesting points in this post and many things that seem to be taken as truths that I would love to see the corroboration for. Firstly, has the number of poor people really been steadily increasing in the last few years? Perhaps, but what percentage of the "new poor" are argentine and what percentage are benefitting from the open border policy that Argentina extends to its neighbours? For instance, Universities like the UBA provide a very high standard of education and it is free! Because of this they appear to be training a lot of Columbian doctors, vets etc.

Rarely do I hear anyone talk about the demands of immigration on Argentina's social services. It seems a bit taboo. But the less inequality there is, the more people will come????
 
Miles Lewis said:
Many interesting points in this post and many things that seem to be taken as truths that I would love to see the corroboration for. Firstly, has the number of poor people really been steadily increasing in the last few years? Perhaps, but what percentage of the "new poor" are argentine and what percentage are benefitting from the open border policy that Argentina extends to its neighbours? For instance, Universities like the UBA provide a very high standard of education and it is free! Because of this they appear to be training a lot of Columbian doctors, vets etc.

Rarely do I hear anyone talk about the demands of immigration on Argentina's social services. It seems a bit taboo. But the less inequality there is, the more people will come????

Glad to obilge. Here is an excerpt from a World Bank report on poverty in Argentina.

The last several decades revealed another puzzle.
Inequality has increased persistently, resulting in rising
levels of poverty in the face of stagnant, albeit widely
fluctuating, average per capita output. Per capita GDP in
2004 was at about the same level as in 1974. Nevertheless,
poverty was much higher in 2004, reflecting an
increasingly unequal distribution of income. Remarkably,
the rise in inequality, and poverty, was observed in
periods of both growth and recession (See Figure 2).
Moreover, although Latin America has not been very
successful in reducing poverty and inequality, the recent
record of most countries in the region was better than
that of Argentina.


You can read the entire report in the link below.

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTENBREVE/Newsletters/20843643/82-NOV05-AR_Growth.pdf

If you want to read about the poor state of education in Argentina read the link below:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/12/16/1975602/argentina-needs-to-face-education.html

This is particularly disheartening as Argentina at one time was a model for public education in Latin America. You don't need a study to determine there is a big problem with education in Argentina and Latin America as a whole. Show me a country today that is achieving much that doesn't have a well educated public.

I don't think immigration of people from neighboring countries explains much of the problems.
 
BSS said:
Many members of this website are critical of the current Argentine President and her politics, and while this post won’t take a position on current politics, it will try to establish that our criticisms may not be legitimate when viewed within the context of Argentine society and legal tradition.

The Argentine constitution is remarkably similar to the Constitution of the United States, discounting the reforms of 1994 (which dealt more with political maneuvering by Menem) and some specific text added during Juan Perón’s rule. However, while both documents have their roots English common law, Locke and Montesquieu, their interpretation and application a extremely different. For example, both the Constitution of the United Sates and Argentina give the individual a “right to work.” In the United States, what is implied is that each individual has the right to enter freely into a contract with another, offering his labor and services. In Argentina, it is often interpreted to mean that the state not only has the responsibility of guaranteeing said right, but the obligation to provide employment.

Both Constitutions provide the right to assemble, associate freely, and by extension, protest against the government. But while the letter of the law is similar, the forms of protest permitted, socially and legally, couldn’t be more different in the United States and Argentina. One cannot begin to critique the differences without understanding the Argentine ‘Proceso,’ the limited popular support of social protest in the United States and the tradition of protests that existed and exist in Latin America (and by extension, Argentina).

The United States is also almost unique among Western democracies in that a large (majority?) of the population does not support a strong federal government. While that is less true today, thanks to the rapid expansion of executive power since Clinton, recent elections in the United States makes clear that the United States population remains skeptical of government attempts to provide social services and assume responsibility not specifically enumerated in it’s constitution. Argentines, however, hold an expansive and liberal view on the responsibility and role of the Federal government. Again, without passing judgement, the Argentine citizen has delegated a large amount of responsibility to the state; while minimizing personal responsibility, and by extension, power.

The same can be said with respect to economic policy. The right to private property is a basic right, usually recognized as a natural law, in modern, liberal democracies- it’s stance here in Argentina is tentative. The Argentine State has respected it weakly, at best. But again, that natural law would be hard to respect (although it is in the Argentine Constitution) if society interprets the constitution as saying that every individual has a right to work, and in the case of the Ciudad de Buenos Aires, an inherent right to a household (it is in the Constitution of the Ciudad de Buenos Aires) .The United States Constitution makes no promises about equality or opportunity, except in respect to the law. No one is guaranteed a job, a home, success or equality of standing (again, except in his natural state and before the law). Whereas, equality in Argentina, as stated in the their constitution, is understood differently. When the President speaks about dividing the wealth, money for families with children, she is addressing the Argentine concept of equality and opportunity.

So, are our criticisms legitimate? In many cases, no. We are looking at Argentine society through an American/English/Australian/whatever prism. What we understand as a the social contract between the government and the people varies greatly from what the overwhelming majority of Argentines understand it to be. While our laws may be the same on paper, it is impossible to import our national experiences here. This post isn’t going to touch the myriad of other problems that Argentina faces. But when it comes to what responsibility the citizen will or will not assume in Argentine, well, it appears that the overwhelming majority of Argentines have already settled that discussion.
Brief and outstanding piece of writing about cultural shock, that is not just to meet some different meals or music.
Congrats
 
Most of us agree with the current administration, and will show it this year again. In free, fair, and open elections. It is not enough for you? And we clearly understand private property to be that,your property. The problem is with the distribution of the fruits of labor. Because a lot of us are (gasp!) socialist, even marxist! You know, of Karl Marx fame, the guy that wrote the book that defined "capitalism",which is the current economic system. So the OP has a point, a lot of us understand things differently from people from the US. If I understood correctly, for many people up there the access to healthcare must not be a right. The vast majority of argentineans will disagree with that position. And that is only one point.

So, you have your opinion, and you complain why in Arg you cannot do this or that. Ok, it is fair. But don´t get angry if the locals do not agree with you. It doesn´t mean that they are less intelligent, they simply believe that other options in economic and social policy are better than yours. To have a discussion about it, you need to prove your point, not only believe it because is the "common sense" in your country of origin. Even if you were right, maybe the local population choose something else based on different values about ourselves, and the tasks that we decide to give to our government.
 
BSS said:
So, are our criticisms legitimate?
Most of the criticism I have read on this site is IMO ridiculous as it is based on a comparison of the best of "my dear old country" with the different culture in Argentina. As in: "Argentinians are wrong if they aren't doing things our way".

Always remember that Not at home is Not at home.

Criticism is fair if it aims at improving things Argentinian on Argentinian conditions, but not if it is based on the assumption that "my dear old country" is the best in the world - why are we here and not there?
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Miles Lewis said:
For instance, Universities like the UBA provide a very high standard of education and it is free! Because of this they appear to be training a lot of Columbian doctors, vets etc.


If you are looking with overseas educated eyes, UBA is a second rate university. It is the top university in Argentina, but ranks 326 on the QS World University Rankings. There are 72 better universities in the US, 40 better in the UK.

http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2010

And medicine and veterinary science are not free at UBA. Whilst there are not formal course fees, they cost tens of thousands of pesos a year in equipment fees for each module.
 
gouchobob said:
If you want to read about the poor state of education in Argentina read the link below:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/12/16/1975602/argentina-needs-to-face-education.html
It is rather shocking to read la presidenta's and Argentina's education minister's reactions - the ostrich reaction: If I hide my head in a hole the problems don't exist.

It is easy for me, who is so lucky to come from a country where education has been mandatory since 1814 and where not only all the politicians but also public debate run wild because we score only slightly above the OECD average instead of among the top 10, to critizise the low level of public education in Argentina and I won't.

But if the leading politicians in any country ignore a low educational level, the problem is not only going to grow but also present a huge future problem in a world where knowledge is the road to prosperity.

PISA Executive summary: http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/54/12/46643496.pdf
 
John.St said:
It is rather shocking to read la presidenta's and Argentina's education minister's reactions - the ostrich reaction: If I hide my head in a hole the problems don't exist.

It is easy for me, who is so lucky to come from a country where education has been mandatory since 1814 and where not only all the politicians but also public debate run wild because we score only slightly above the OECD average instead of among the top 10, to critizise the low level of public education in Argentina and I won't.

But if the leading politicians in any country ignore a low educational level, the problem is not only going to grow but also present a huge future problem in a world where knowledge is the road to prosperity.

PISA Executive summary: http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/54/12/46643496.pdf

I agree education is the absolute key to a lot of the problems. When you finally hear somebody running for office and they say they will work to strengthen the countries institutions(courts and legislative branches principally) and improve education then you know that this could be the real deal. Listen what candidates say in the upcoming presidential campaign, if they aren't taking about institutional reform and education then its the same old window dressing. The problem with the current government is they have wasted few opportunities to weaken institutions and the state of public education has continued to deteriorate, the two key issues to address in turning Argentina around in my opinion.
 
So, are our criticisms legitimate?

Of course they are. I'm all for freedom of speech, so speak out!

In many cases, no. We are looking at Argentine society through an American/English/Australian/whatever prism.

Criticizing is evaluating. Evaluating is examining. Examining is observing. Observing is watching with attention. Watching with attention is what you do when you are in a place unfamiliar to you. It's an instinctive reaction to dealing with the unknown.

I read your post and found comparisons between what you are familiar with and what you are not. You found differences and similarities, and took a close look at them. You're analyzing them. You are thinking.

You're welcome to think all you wish.
 
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