Argentina Politics

nickname303

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Hi everyone!!!

For the last year this sight has provided me with loads reliable and practical information, for which I am grateful. And yet on the rare occasion that I browse the politics threads I tend see the same anti-kirchner middle class porteño pabulum, which leads me to asking the question:is there anyone on the site that might be critical and to the left of the kirchner proyect, or perhaps alternatively define themselves as kirchnerista? Call it a sociological survey, title: "Gringo Politics".

Thanks!
 
In my understanding of politics, politicians represent interest groups. Very very generally in Argentina, the ultra rich have always been very well represented. With the advent of the Radicales and later the Peronists, the middle class began to have a voice. As in every other country I know of, the only group that has never had an effective voice in the government are the poor (the majority).

I for one would align myself politically with this latter group's interests. Fortunately the policies of the last 10 years have (with some ups and downs) helped this group, making it less poor. These policies (such as fostering national industry, reducing the external debt, controlling capital flight) are do NOT originate with the Argentine political class and much less the Kirchners; they were rather forced on them by the REAL caceralzos in 2001/02.

I don't know where this puts me on Right/Left whatever, but I do see the Kirchner administrations as somewhat to "rightist".
 
Cristina claims to represent the poor. She scoffs at the "rich" (including those who we would consider living here at a true middle class level as compared to developed countries and the true middle class here as well, both groups who are far from truly rich, although certainly much better off than the poor) and their concerns while proposing control by the government of industry and economy in many ways. Never opening up opportunities, but rather closing them in the name of the greater good.

I guess it all depends on your definition of what serves the poor, who truly never have had real representation, but rather who have been used in various manners by various politicians over the years. Whose level of existence indeed may have risen a bit over the last decade, but who are faced yet again with rising costs and, since the real poor here are not members of unions or educated well enough to get white collar or decent paying jobs or are members of the government or government workers, they are unable to keep up with inflation, unlike those mentioned who continue to get large raises.

To me, the poor are not being helped, and will never be helped, by this government's policies. I don't see much hope for the poor in Argentina, and even for the middle class, who supposedly have representation. Neither do most of my friends and acquaintances, both middle class and poor, although I do know some of both who have some vague idea that Cristina is "for the workers and the poor", well, because that's what they've heard.

Eva y Cristina dan alas a todos.

But hell, I believe in personal responsibility and helping by helping, not voting tax dollars to government entities which in the very best of circumstances is inefficient and in my personal opinion helps to destroy the self-value of individuals. I also believe that voting that money to let others do (through one-size-fits-all government agencies) what should be a more personal responsibility is too easy and lets people forget about the problem too readily - and let's things grow out of control. Exactly what many governments (the States included) want or can use to their benefit, intentionally or unintentionally.

"Emergency! There's a problem we have created and only we can solve it! But it's not our fault, it's those evil rich! Robin Hood time!" Ok, ok, I'll stop now.

Of course, for depending on personal responsibility to work, to take care of those who truly can't help themselves, you have to have a system that allows people the opportunities to worry about more than themselves and simply hang on to everything they own in a desperate attempt to stay ahead of the instability.

This government talks such things as equality, but I say - prove it. I haven't seen it. I've seen a bunch of excuses, a bunch of straw men and a bunch of propaganda, and a whole lot of blatant corruption and the ignoring of the rule of law (or the changing of laws to suit those in power), but I haven't seen any real progress. In fact I've seen the opposite in the last couple of years.

I reckon I'm about the polar opposite of a Kirchnerite. I think it even puts me to the left of them - or some other dimension. I don't like thinking in only two dimensions like "right" and "left."
 
There is no left vs. right in Argentina. Only a couple of freak circuses trying to get people to go see their show and hopefully pay a lifetime ticket for the cheap price of their soul. The cicerone of the main circus right now is the Scary Lady. It is part of the Justice Circus Organisation. Public and sponsors never really know expect from their different circuses. Only that there will be no justice number in the show(the illusionist irony trick).
The creator of the organisation was a funny man and all over the republic people miss him and his wife the Fair Lady. She was so kind that once when she stumbled upon a Indian village where they had no need for last names, she gave them all the one that she was no longer using.

There are other circuses as well. A competing circus, Union Road Circuses have quite a lot of visitors. Nobody seems to know why since they dont seem to have a cicerone, any special artists or even a show. Only that they are a competing circus.

There is also the Circus Caravan Cruisers. They deliver popcorn all over the republic and if the circuses dont want to pay the high prices they will block all the roads. They usually offer cheaper popcorn and less roadblocks to the Justice Circuses, but currently they are in an argument over the percentage of butter to be used in the popcorn.

Most of this information you can read about in the Circus Daily. They write lots of reviews about the circus shows. Reporting for Circus Daily seems easy. "Lion escapes from the Grandma Circus and it is the Scary Ladys fault!" The seldom ask why/how/when did it escape. How could it have been prevented? Do the cage guards need more education? Maybe the guard called Rivotrilio that fell asleep on his post should not have been accepted to the guard school of the republic? Is there even a lion?

Anyway, it seems to me like there is a lot of people that wants some modern non-freak show kind of circus. Maybe a little less exciting, but where you know the price before you pay and you know what to expect. Maybe they could hand out flyers where you read about the different acts, price, date and location.

Btw, I am split between social democrat and green party. Dont know what that would be in Argentina. I guess the one that is actually the freak here is me. I believe that no matter if you are left or right, a modern society will not function well without the rule of law.
 
ItsyBits said:
There is no left vs. right in Argentina. Only a couple of freak circuses trying to get people to go see their show and hopefully pay a lifetime ticket for the cheap price of their soul. The cicerone of the main circus right now is the Scary Lady. It is part of the Justice Circus Organisation. Public and sponsors never really know expect from their different circuses. Only that there will be no justice number in the show(the illusionist irony trick).
The creator of the organisation was a funny man and all over the republic people miss him and his wife the Fair Lady. She was so kind that once when she stumbled upon a Indian village where they had no need for last names, she gave them all the one that she was no longer using.

There are other circuses as well. A competing circus, Union Road Circuses have quite a lot of visitors. Nobody seems to know why since they dont seem to have a cicerone, any special artists or even a show. Only that they are a competing circus.

There is also the Circus Caravan Cruisers. They deliver popcorn all over the republic and if the circuses dont want to pay the high prices they will block all the roads. They usually offer cheaper popcorn and less roadblocks to the Justice Circuses, but currently they are in an argument over the percentage of butter to be used in the popcorn.

Most of this information you can read about in the Circus Daily. They write lots of reviews about the circus shows. Reporting for Circus Daily seems easy. "Lion escapes from the Grandma Circus and it is the Scary Ladys fault!" The seldom ask why/how/when did it escape. How could it have been prevented? Do the cage guards need more education? Maybe the guard called Rivotrilio that fell asleep on his post should not have been accepted to the guard school of the republic? Is there even a lion?

Anyway, it seems to me like there is a lot of people that wants some modern non-freak show kind of circus. Maybe a little less exciting, but where you know the price before you pay and you know what to expect. Maybe they could hand out flyers where you read about the different acts, price, date and location.

Btw, I am split between social democrat and green party. Dont know what that would be in Argentina. I guess the one that is actually the freak here is me. I believe that no matter if you are left or right, a modern society will not function well without the rule of law.

The most accurate description of politics in Argentina i've ever read!

:D
 
Some interesting responses here. Thanks all for your candor. Itsybits- Perhaps I'm not sophisticated enough to fully grasp your meaning, but I'd hazard that the circus bit is an analogy for the Partido Justicialista, no? Three-ring-circus-populist-clientelist-demagoguery type thing? Anyway, I'd probably meet you half way and reply that there is indeed a political left and right in Argentina, albeit no clearcut left vs. right debate in the current historical moment.
But it was never really my intention to spark a debate about terminology. As a shorthand, I'll just paraphrase the philosopher Leszez Kolakowski on the matter: right wing politics tends to offer immediate strategies that are narrowly tuned to the short-term present situation, whereas left wing politics tends to focus on long-run historical currents and ideology. Maybe?
I suppose I was mostly curious to see if an ardent Kirchner supporter would pop-up on this forum, but so far they remain an elusive species!
P.S. For those on the side of the embattled "middle class", I recommend a very interesting and well-researched book on the subject by Ezequiel Adamovsky titled Historia de la clase media argentina.
 
I guess I could agree with you that there is some kind of left and right. Just not like the ones i am use to. Who is to the right? PRO? Any others?

I come from a more or less socialistic country and grew up under mostly leftist governments, today we have a right wing alliance . The discussion there about what is left or right is not much about ideology anymore but more based on finding the golden balance between the public/state responsibilities vs. private. Depending on culture and such I believe that this balance do not need to be the same for every country to be prosperous for its people.

But whatever it is that you want to achieve I believe that there is usually an order to do so. A cup of tea usually taste better if you first heat up the water and then add the tea, wait a bit and then if you want you can add your preferable ideology of lemon, sugar, honey or milk.
If this were Argentinian politics, no matter if they are left or right, they want to take a shortcut and skip heating up the water and just go straight to the lemon/sugar/honey/milk. Not a great result even if you have the most expensive honey. They even forgot the teabag.
 
nickname303 said:
Some interesting responses here. Thanks all for your candor. Itsybits- Perhaps I'm not sophisticated enough to fully grasp your meaning, but I'd hazard that the circus bit is an analogy for the Partido Justicialista, no? Three-ring-circus-populist-clientelist-demagoguery type thing? Anyway, I'd probably meet you half way and reply that there is indeed a political left and right in Argentina, albeit no clearcut left vs. right debate in the current historical moment.
But it was never really my intention to spark a debate about terminology. As a shorthand, I'll just paraphrase the philosopher Leszez Kolakowski on the matter: right wing politics tends to offer immediate strategies that are narrowly tuned to the short-term present situation, whereas left wing politics tends to focus on long-run historical currents and ideology. Maybe?
I suppose I was mostly curious to see if an ardent Kirchner supporter would pop-up on this forum, but so far they remain an elusive species!
P.S. For those on the side of the embattled "middle class", I recommend a very interesting and well-researched book on the subject by Ezequiel Adamovsky titled Historia de la clase media argentina.

you're in luck! http://baexpats.org/expat-life/24355-she-makes-me-sick-already-2.html#post184597
 
What I have always found about Argentine politics is that you can have political parties but it's all about "movements", either a coalition or mostly by the strength of an individual or individuals who like the moon, pull the tide of certain groups of people around with them. For this reason the political landscape is fluid but also dangerous, creating an unstable political environment.
 
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