Argentines American dream goes sour

flyfreely

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gouchobob said:
You appear to be (based on your posting) a big supporter of the Kirchners.
This I don't get, perhaps you could explain what you see in them.
Oh, come on, saying that Argentina has more freedom that the US has nothing to do with supporting the Kirchners. I hate the Kirchners, I think they are ruining this country, but I have to agree with Pericles, this country has a lot more freedom than the US (yes, I am an American). We are not the only ones that think this, that is one of the top reasons why Buenos Aires is so full of foreigners. That doesn't translate to being anti-US, or pro-Kirchner, that is a general feeling. That freedom is often abused by the way, and I often find myself wishing there was more serious law enforcement, but nonetheless, you have a lot of freedoms here, and when you cross the line here, that can be often be solved with 20 pesos instead of a 3 prison sentence here. Again, not a good thing, but that translates to freedom.

As for the article, I think most expats in Argentina have to find it disturbing. A lot of people in this forum are here illegally, or barely legal (coming in and out every 3 months and working in Buenos Aires or having a business is illegal with a tourist entry stamp), and if they are willing to break immigration law for pleasure and to enjoy the freedoms of Argentina, it would be hypocritical to not have the heart the empathize with those who are willing to break US immigration law to feed their families, or give them a better future.
 

gouchobob

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flyfreely said:
Oh, come on, saying that Argentina has more freedom that the US has nothing to do with supporting the Kirchners. I hate the Kirchners, I think they are ruining this country, but I have to agree with Pericles, this country has a lot more freedom than the US (yes, I am an American). We are not the only ones that think this, that is one of the top reasons why Buenos Aires is so full of foreigners. That doesn't translate to being anti-US, or pro-Kirchner, that is a general feeling. That freedom is often abused by the way, and I often find myself wishing there was more serious law enforcement, but nonetheless, you have a lot of freedoms here, and when you cross the line here, that can be often be solved with 20 pesos instead of a 3 prison sentence here. Again, not a good thing, but that translates to freedom.

As for the article, I think most expats in Argentina have to find it disturbing. A lot of people in this forum are here illegally, or barely legal (coming in and out every 3 months and working in Buenos Aires or having a business is illegal with a tourist entry stamp), and if they are willing to break immigration law for pleasure and to enjoy the freedoms of Argentina, it would be hypocritical to not have the heart the empathize with those who are willing to break US immigration law to feed their families, or give them a better future.
Interesting post, one could say you equate corruption and incompetence of the authorities with freedom. The problem with this is that the authorities could change their demeanor and there are few protections that would keep you safe(go read up on the last military governments here in the recent past). Freedom is rule by law, separation of powers, functioning and independent courts, etc. The problem with the K's is that they have taken every opportunity to weaken these basics of freedom.

It's too bad what happened to the family that originally started this thread and you can't help but being sympathetic to their plight.
 

orwellian

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SaraSara said:
Where do YOU get your "information" from?
From a lot of sources, if you ask me about a specific thing I can provide you with it. But I believe the you made a specific accusation about the K's, and we would like to know the source.
I am not saying you are wrong, I am just saying I won't take your words for it just because you were there.
 

SaraSara

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All right, here's how I get my information: from reading five papers: La Nacion, Clarin, Perfil, Cronica and Pagina 12, watching TV, listening to talk radio, and talking to lots of Args. in all walks of life, from cab drivers and bricklayers to university professors and industrialists.

If your Spanish is good enough, listening to talk radio can be very informative. People call in with their questions and experiences, and you get to know an Argentina that otherwise is easy to miss. Everyone calls: long distance truck drivers, single mothers, cabbies, salesmen on the road, small farmers, and people waiting for the bus in the farthest BA suburbs.

So, those are my sources. Combine all four, and you get a pretty accurate idea of what's going on. You may want to try them, if you are really interested in learning about Argentina.
 

orwellian

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SaraSara said:
All right, here's how I get my information: from reading five papers: La Nacion, Clarin, Perfil, Cronica and Pagina 12, watching TV, listening to talk radio, and talking to lots of Args. in all walks of life, from cab drivers and bricklayers to university professors and industrialists.

If your Spanish is good enough, listening to talk radio can be very informative. People call in with their questions and experiences, and you get to know an Argentina that otherwise is easy to miss. Everyone calls: long distance truck drivers, single mothers, cabbies, salesmen on the road, small farmers, and people waiting for the bus in the farthest BA suburbs.

So, those are my sources. Combine all four, and you get a pretty accurate idea of what's going on. You may want to try them, if you are really interested in learning about Argentina.
Yes but what I meant was I would like to see the actual articles myself. It is possible that you are mistaken about certain events that you've read about, or even that the reporting of those events were incorrect.
Unless you can prove it, you shouldn't state it as a fact. You should be saying that I've read, or I have heard...
 

SaraSara

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orwellian said:
Yes but what I meant was I would like to see the actual articles myself. It is possible that you are mistaken about certain events that you've read about, or even that the reporting of those events were incorrect.
Unless you can prove it, you shouldn't state it as a fact. You should be saying that I've read, or I have heard...
Those articles are nine years old. I give up: you don't want to debate, or to exchange ideas, you just want to win. I wonder why that is so important to you - what's missing in your life?

Anyway, goodbye Orwellian; have a good day, and have a good life.
 

Quentin.Daniels

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SaraSara said:
All right, here's how I get my information: from reading five papers: La Nacion, Clarin, Perfil, Cronica and Pagina 12, watching TV, listening to talk radio, and talking to lots of Args. in all walks of life, from cab drivers and bricklayers to university professors and industrialists.

If your Spanish is good enough, listening to talk radio can be very informative. People call in with their questions and experiences, and you get to know an Argentina that otherwise is easy to miss. Everyone calls: long distance truck drivers, single mothers, cabbies, salesmen on the road, small farmers, and people waiting for the bus in the farthest BA suburbs.

So, those are my sources. Combine all four, and you get a pretty accurate idea of what's going on. You may want to try them, if you are really interested in learning about Argentina.
This is why you have no idea about what the real facts are, you are listening to and reading different opinions and opinions only not facts, for example the clarin is going to have a different opinion than la nacion and a right wing radio station is going to have a different opinion than a left wing radio station. Then you are taking all this information and creating your own opinion, your are NOT stating ANY FACTS in ANY of your posts, for it to be a fact you need to be able to referencing it to a source that can be verified by the other readers on this forum.
For example I am going to state a FACT about what the word OPINION means and I will provide a link to the source of this fact http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion
FACT. OPINION means
1.a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2.a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
 

marksoc

Registered
Anybody that says that the K "confiscated" the private pension funds clearly doesn't understand what a private pension fund is, the problems this system had in Argentina, and the lower amount of money that he/she had received if by some magical reason the private system could survive another 30 years. K maybe made that move by the wrong reasons, but they made you a favor.
 

Quentin.Daniels

Registered
orwellian said:
Yes but what I meant was I would like to see the actual articles myself. It is possible that you are mistaken about certain events that you've read about, or even that the reporting of those events were incorrect.
Unless you can prove it, you shouldn't state it as a fact. You should be saying that I've read, or I have heard...
orwellian is correct here and even if the actual articles are not available there is always references to these event on the web.

SaraSara said:
Those articles are nine years old. I give up: you don't want to debate, or to exchange ideas, you just want to win. I wonder why that is so important to you - what's missing in your life?

Anyway, goodbye Orwellian; have a good day, and have a good life.
This in my opinion is proof that you are only stating your OPINIONS not any facts.
 
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