At A Crossroads: Economics or Computers

Nicoenarg - Are you still looking for an internship? I am leaving my job here but one of my clients is a big computer company. They're more HW than SW but I can certainly ask if they have anything available for an internship. Certainly the fact that you have your DNI will make it much easier.

Send me a PM - I can't promise anything but I can at least find out if they have an internship program and whom you should contact.
 
Nico, thanks for the clarification.

My initial response was based on how things are on the back-end (i.e. boring and technical) side of the computer industry. There are still jobs around related to that. My company has a hard time filling slots when people leave, but there are several reasons for that.

I don't know much about the more creative side these days, other than to say that relative to the technical side, there are MUCH fewer jobs, especially in Argentina. At least in terms of pure programming. If your program is geared more towards the web-design end of things, I imagine that having "business experience" would be valuable as well.
 
Citygirl and sleslie23, thanks for your posts, I'll PM you guys tomorrow after I drag myself out of bed (or my wife drags me out, with love of course), and get to a computer.

So far I'm seeing mostly everyone saying that I should stick with computers. Economics side of things can't be that bad here can they?

Any economics defenders/promoters?
 
davonz said:
Forget about the interships for a minute..

What interests you more ?

Do you see yourself settling in one place or moving about ?

I am a computer consultant, and have worked in many countries for international companies. I have for the last 7 or 8 years just done my own thing, have a few servers sitting in my dads office in NZ, and host email/websites/databases/cloud servers for clients. While i dont make the big $ i use to doing consulting work i have freedom. I travel for 3 to 6 months, in BSAS for 4 to 6 months and in NZ/AU for 1 to 2 months every year. And as long as i have a reasonable internet connection i can work from anywhere. But the most important thing is, if its a cold/wet day, i just stay in bed...

I also like economics, not sure if its was always an interest or because i worked for big banks/oil companies and had to understand their trading systems etc, but i was tempted to do an MBA or similar, and have dabbled in fx/commodity trading, but i would have been restricted in my lifestyle, where i could work if i had gone down that path.

The other thing i like about the computer industry is that its in a state of constant change - which keeps it interesting to a certain degree.

Back to the internship - that wouldnt be on my list of things to worry about, my attitude is if you have skills and motivation you can make it on your own, it might take a couple of years to build a client base, but once you get your name out there you will be doing ok. Or maybe you might come up with the next facebook/amazon/ebay and all you would have ro worry about is how to spend all that dosh !!!

What interests me more? One word, "economics"! It's just beautiful to me.

I like computers, like I said, but do I talk about computers every chance I get? Not really. I have a hobbyist's interest when it comes to computers. I can sit and learn about computers too but it's not as natural as it is for me to learn economic models (they just make sense, even if I don't agree with them).

Okay, enough about my passions.

I'm trying to be practical here. If I do economics, I'll learn computers on the side, if I do computers I'll do economics on the side (I'm currently doing courses via MIT's online free economics courses). The problem is I can't do both at the same time with my university.

As for where I want to work and whether I want to travel. I was a flight attendant for 3 years before my wife and I moved to Argentina 6 months ago, I think I've got the "travelling" bug out of my system. But we're here for three years and then we're outta here either to Zurich, Switzerland, Edinburgh, Scotland, Melbourne, Australia or Houston, Texas. And when we get to either of these places, we only wanna leave for holidays and that's it.
 
This, to me, is a bit of a difficult bind you find yourself in :)

I have been a professional programmer now for a bit more than twenty years (damn!!). One thing I have noticed about programmers is that it is a bit of an art form and if you don't have the spark, you may end up just a mediocre programmer. I knew a lot of people in the 90s who got into programming because it was lucrative. I.e., not something they loved.

I think this is probably true with a lot of careers.

I think it was somewhere around 1975 (I was 13 at the time) that my father bought me a Texas Instruments console computer. It hooked up to my black and white TV, was basically just a keyboard with a processor and a few ports to plug things into. The only way I had to store data once the console was turned off was to record it on an audio cassette. When I loaded the data the next time I turned it on, I could literally hear the digital information being loaded audibly.

I used to stay up all hours of the night figuring out how to write programs.

Ah, those were the days :)

I've never been without some form of computer since then.

After graduating from high school, and after a too-long abortive attempt to get a computer science degree (we actually learned punch cards my second year - no way!), which then turned into an abortive attempt to get a degree in Latin and then English Lit, I entered the work force as a driver for a construction company. Heh.

While I was there, I wrote payroll and inventory programs when I wasn't driving a truck and they made me a draftsman (by hand, not computerized yet) and I worked at that for awhile.

I ended up working for an engineering company as a draftsman, finally got into CAD drafting (AutoCAD) where I ended up, once again, writing software for the engineering company in the form of AutoLISP scripts to make the whole process of designing building easier for us poor draftsmen that had to do some many things to make the out-of-the-box application of the time function efficiently.

I then went to work for an offshore drilling company doing temporary work, putting all of their hard-copy documentation into an indexed electronic form. While I was doing that, I got to talking to the manager of Purchasing, who told me the problems they had with people traveling all of the time and not being able to physically sign material requisitions which caused a big problem in getting supplies to rigs. In my spare time (once again), I wrote an MR system that used email to distribute packets of data to email in-boxes of the people who needed to sign requisitions and send the data back with their electronic signatures.

IT manager came to see me shortly after that and offered me a job as a programmer. I was the happiest person in the world. I felt like someone who made millions playing football - I couldn't believe someone was actually going to pay me to do the thing I loved most in the world. I ended up as manager of software development for that company and worked there for ten years until we were bought out and I decided to go out on my own.

The point is - happiness in life comes not only from family and friends, but also from doing something that you are truly happy with. Otherwise, no matter the family and friends, it can bring a lot of misery into your life if you get locked into something that you don't like. I know you said you like computers, at least as a hobbyist, but there can be an awful lot of crap that you have t put up with as well, particularly clients who simply don't understand software development - be they clients in your own business, or department managers in a company you're working for, or even your own boss who wants you to do things in a way that you just KNOW is going to cause havoc down the line.

I can't really advise you which course to take without being you - it's too big a decision.

But as some have mentioned, both careers would be great mixed together. I'd concentrate on what I love first and then what may help me add to that enjoyment later.

The way you talk about economics (which, I've also started to pick up recently as a hobbyist) is the way I remember feeling about programming starting some 35 years ago.
 
nicoenarg said:
Thanks expatinowncountry. The thing is, my wife and I are going to stay here for the next three years or so and I need to worry about getting jobs as an intern to get experience here. Whether that's with consulting firms that work with the government and pay alright salaries or no salaries is alright because experience is what matters to me at this moment.

For the past six months I've been in talks with international companies in computers who were willing to offer me positions as an intern (with my limited knowledge of Java and Processing) but have withdrawn the offers now because of the economic climate here.

In that respect, I have no idea if there are any interships or junior level jobs in the field of economics here at all. It doesn't have to be pure economics actually, an investment bank (yeah, sharks in suits and all that stuff, I don't care), or anything else in finance is fine and dandy too.

What does your brother, if its not too much to ask, do in IT specifically?

My brother does programming for Nokia mobiles. He lives in Barcelona and work from home mostly for the UK and Finland.
I think the big differences between Econ and IT, job market wise, is that in Economics you need to have at least a good MA (or a PhD) to be taken seriously and in IT you just need to know how to do the stuff. My brother dropped his computer science degree because he considered that he was learning nothing and he makes as much as I do working from home with no degree. I have to say that he knows his stuff very well.
I really do not know much about investment banking in Argentina as I am more in the academic side. I could share with you a list of think tanks in Argentina that you may want to try for internships but again, I think pay will be ridiculously low. On the other hand, if you will stay here for some time you could do a MA in Economics. Di Tella is quite good and it used to be in the evening. UBA is much cheaper and easier to get in but I have to recognize that at the master level Di Tella and San Andres are far better than UBA.
 
I don't know if this helps, but I work for a company that provides an SaaS platform. Here in Argentina they have a software factory. I have only been here a few months (I work in sales and related, not a tech position) and what I have been told by the few programmers that remain here is that there used to be a lot more of them, however in the last year or so several positions that were "outsourced" from the USA to Argentina in the past few years, now have been outsourced from Argentina to the Philippines and the Middle East due to costs and labor laws. As inflation rages out of control here, expect the opportunites to keep evaporating.
 
Davidglen77 said:
I don't know if this helps, but I work for a company that provides an SaaS platform. Here in Argentina they have a software factory. I have only been here a few months (I work in sales and related, not a tech position) and what I have been told by the few programmers that remain here is that there used to be a lot more of them, however in the last year or so several positions that were "outsourced" from the USA to Argentina in the past few years, now have been outsourced from Argentina to the Philippines and the Middle East due to costs and labor laws. As inflation rages out of control here, expect the opportunites to keep evaporating.

Thanks, yes, even if the companies aren't moving their operations to the Philippines or the Middle East (where?), I know of companies and private businesses picking up and going to Brazil, Chile, Uruguay and Paraguay. It kinda explains why the offers have dried up recently.

I'm still trying to make a decision but keeping the future in mind, the future of the computer industry looks kind of bleak for someone like me. I will probably end up as a mediocre programmer (as ElQueso put it) here. But my wife and I are still thinking whether to do the whole 3 years or just leave after completing a year here.

Don't know yet. There are a lot of variables, it seems, that we need to consider before I can consider what route to take.
 
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