Ciudadanía / Citizenship

[ElCordobés]

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]Hello all,[/background]

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]My family and I wish to pursue citizenship. We were granted our permanent residency in March 2013 after a single 3-1/2 hour appt....1 hour of which we hung out at a cafe across the street while they prepped our paperwork (not sure whether Córdoba is easier for this trámite). [/background]

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]My second daughter was born here 17 months ago so she made it much easier as we're parents (both estadounidenses) to an Argentine. My older daughter was granted her residency at the same time as she is the daughter of Permanent Residents. Anyway, that all went so well (we received our DNIs is less than two weeks)...that we're ready to tackle the next step. [/background]

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]On paper we should be in pretty good shape.[/background]

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]X (1) Legal residency (Date of entry shown on DNI 27 SET 2012) Although we've been here about 3 years. [/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]X (2) Legal work. I am set up as Monotributo Categoría E[/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]X (3) That you speak, read and write Spanish. Good to go here.[/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)](4) That you renounce your native citizenship. Hmmm...ya...no, but per the US Dual-citizenship information...one can effectively renounce as part of the formal process of affirming a second citizenship. (So...ok if you don't really mean it. Ha!)[/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]X (5) DNI with permanent residency [/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]X (6) Birth certificate apostilled and translated.[/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]X (7) Certificate of a clean criminal record from your home country. I have the originals that are more than 90 days old. May need to do again.[/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]X (8) Certificate of a clean criminal record in Argentina....no antecedentes en Argentina. Did this before with Reincidencia...can do it again...[/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]X (9) CUIT or CUIL number . I have a CUIT and my wife will be getting hers soon and also setting up as a low categoria Monotributo[/background]

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]It will be interesting to see how much different the process is up here and how we get on with the judge, etc. I'm hoping to be one of the quicker processes....not some of the tough ones I've seen this thread, but we'll try to learn for those headaches. We've had either incredible luck or preparation with our other trámites...I was able to get my daughter's Partida de Nacimiento, DNI and Argentine Passport in less than two weeks as well (walked in midday...to a special magic office that didn't require turnos...wild)...also just bought a new car and got my driver's license and talked the official out of making me do the practical exam since I didn't yet have the car..so things have gone well with the Registro and Migracion and the Municipality...now our turn with the Judicial system! [/background]

Anyone have recent success stories or lessons learned to share? Our situation will be different in Cordoba, but anything we can learn here would be great. Any others attempt outside of BsAs?

Thanks!

 

[nicoenarg]

I'll just go through your points telling you what I know to be facts. Others can correct me or add to it but there's a lot of outdated information here:

1) You and your wife were eligible to apply for citizenship from the day your daughter was born here regardless of your legal status but the fact that you have the DNI helps with judges. Just saying that legally you didn't need the DNI to be eligible.

2) Again, legally you don't need "Legal" work. Your income "under the table" is acceptable as well but you'd need a lawyer to be able to get that accepted. So again, since you have "legal" work, it makes that part easier for you.

3) Outdated. But still a lot of judges ask that you do know Spanish.

4) Nuh uh. Outdated. Don't know if any judge nowadays requires you renounce your citizenship. Legally you don't have to, nor should you be asked to renounce your citizenship.

5) Outdated requirement again, since your daughter was born here, legally your residence status doesn't matter.

6) Its good you have it since a lot of judges still ask for DNI AND Passport AND birth certificate even though the law says DNI OR Passport OR birth certificate.

7) I may be completely mistaken but I think the criminal records certificate is good for up to 2 years. But someone else will have to comment on that since I'm not sure at all.

8) The judge will ask you to do all the prints and antecendentes again, if I'm not mistaken. Again, not sure whether you have to do it again if you already have it or not.

9) This is the same as the "legal" work requirement. As long as you can prove you're earning and supporting your family, your wife should not need to present paperwork for her separately.

As for where to apply, you should have something equivalent to Tribunales here in BsAs on Talcahuano. The process here is straightforward. You show up with the required documents (DNI, birth certificate, etc) and they put your name in the system and do a lottery style allocation of a judge to your case. Then you go to the assigned judge's secretary and get the ball rolling.

Oh and this thread (ignore gunt86, since he really didn't know what he was talking about and focus on what Bajo_cero2 wrote since he is a citizenship and constitutional lawyer) will help you a lot with different people's opinions and experiences: http://baexpats.org/...for-foreigners/

EDIT: As for experiences:

Check, double check, and then check it again that ALL the information on your DNI is correct. My case got delayed 6 months because someone with a negative IQ couldn't take his finger out of his hind-parts when writing out my DNI. They put, first, my gender as F and then when I went in to get that corrected, they decided I was born somewhere else. That screwed things up and the judge's secretary held my case until I got that corrected. I instead hired a lawyer who knew what he was doing and got my case going again.

So again, make sure ALL your details are correct. If your name is misspelled, they will give you problems, if it was the fault of migraciones and not yours, they'll still blame you for it. So be very careful.

 

[ElCordobés]

Thanks for the very detailed reply. I actually took a BajoCero checklist as my initial guide. I located what appears to be the correct location here in Cordoba. http://www.pjn.gov.a...ubro=2����Looks like there are 3 Juzgado Federal de Córdoba...Address: Av C Arenal 690 - Córdoba, Córdoba Province, Argentina I plan to make a trip down to get the lay of the land.

I've been checking locally and only initially to find an attorney who in the very least check over our details. I wish we had out own Bajo Cero up here! I believe I had seen some sample petitions floating around. I just want to be sure (or as sure as I can be about anything here) that I have everything to start things on the right path from the outset.

With our other big tramites...we've been able to do them in one shot...didn't even have to run anywhere for extra copies. Being parents to an Argentine certainly has grease the wheels....but also checking everything 3 or 4 times. Thanks for the noted regarding your DNI. I know they initially entered one of us as the wrong gender as well, but corrected for the final DNIs.

Are you still "in process"? How long has it been for you that far? Just started back through the link you provided to see whether there's anything new.

Thanks!

 

[Bajo_cero2]

I suggest you go to Court to find out what they really ask.
Use this website, it is better. You can check who is the judge of your address.
http://www.jus.gob.ar/media/62637/cordoba.pdf
Read just after "competencia" to find out your judge.

 

[ElCordobés]

Thanks. I will make the trip down there next week. I'm in Córdoba Capital. It's Nº 1 2 or 3. Looks like 3 might be vacant right now...hopefully not the judge I need!

 

[ElCordobés]

I went to the Tribunales Federales de Córdoba today. They gave me a short list of requirements. The told me to put this together and the desk to turn it into and we will have our case(s) assigned.

1. Partida de nacimiento legalizada por el país de origen y visada por el cónsul. I have the original, translated and the Apostille du Haya that I presented to migraciones. Does it get any more official than that?

2. Certificado de migraciones. I have an email to migraciones regarding this. They have always replied within 24 hours in Córdoba

3. Certificado de Antecedentes (Central de Policia Colón esquina Santa Fe) I had this done the first time with RNR, but now that we're residents...I guess we must do with the police. It was very effcient with RNR. I'd rather go there if I can. I also asked about my US antecedentes since it wasn't noted on the list...He said I must have that too. Migracion has our originals...hoping to use those...I asked about then in my email to migracion as well.

4. Certificado de Domicilio (Seccional de Policia del Barrio) I have done this before with my local precinct and can do again very easily.

5. Justificacion de medios de vida. I'm a Monotributista. He said I can simply bring my Constancia de Opcion. That sounds too easy. Thoughts? My wife is ama de casa (we're not married in the eyes of Argentina...only married in the US...I have a translated, legalized, and Apostille du Haya of our marriage certificate). I'm not sure if it would be a good idea to set her up a monotributo or get married here...or just go ahead without any further action.

6. Nombres de dos personas. (para atestiguar en la causa) This is no problem. I confirmed that they must be Argentines...they can't be other permanent residents. Not sure if they can both be from the same household. To be safe we'll provide names of unrelated friends.

Any other tips other than having extra copies of everything and document carefully what I have provided in the case our files were to go missing?

Thanks!

 

[surfing]

Just be persistent and, once you've submitted everything, go once a month to check on the progress of the tramite. You can get it done eventually and you don't need to pay a lawyer.

 

[ElCordobés]

An update.

We submitted our papers on Friday and today completed our fingerprints with the federal police to be sent off to BA.

Had I known, I would have completed the form with the Mesa de Entrega earlier to have our cases assigned. They just has a form for our names as "ACTOR" in the petition for carta de ciudadania. And another form for the names of our testigos and a bit of our personal details. Once submitted...we were assigned our court/judge on the spot. We have a different court, but the same judge as one court is vacant at the moment as I noted further up this thread. (They assign cases by lottery in Cordoba too...I tried to get us in the same lot, but they said no...in no uncertain terms). It was all pretty painless otherwise.

The clerk I submitted my papers to said it's been running about 10-12 months in Córdoba to get the Carta. I am hoping for under 18 months...so if we do it in 10-12 months...we'll be happy and shocked. (He coincidentally has been to a small town from my state where his aunt lives...he even named the college there). He asked if I knew the process of what happens next and took the time to walk me through it (fortunately it corresponds with what I have read and understood) He said the primary thing that usually holds people up is the means of living. Of course, we knew this.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

We have monotributista status, I assume we'll need to provide something certified by the accountant and bank statements. They seemed impressed with what we had for our submission thus far. I wish we had started right after getting our DNIs...we might be done by now. Oh well.

It should again be noted. We are parents to native-born citizen. In theory, this will make things easier. It was a relative breeze for our DNIs. In addition to the list above, they asked to see the partida de nacimiento. We had the legalized version with us and two copies...one for each of our files. Also presented her DNI and copies for the file as well.

They kept the originals of the Antecendentes and Certificado de Domicilio. We kept all of the birth cert. originals as well as the Certificado de Migraciones. They noted only one of our two testigos will ultimately be called for each of our cases.

One thing that we thought would bite us in the ass. My clerk on Friday...processed a paper that I needed on the spot to get digital fingerprinting to be sent off to BA with a 30-45 day turnaround (Although my clerk said he would be surprised if it goes missing or gets rejected that we'd have to process again...let's hope not).

My wife's clerk (again same judge mind you...) said that we'd have to wait until February to get the form (since everything is closing after this Friday through January...I pressed the clerk on it since we want to be processed more or less simultaneously...and we went back today..Monday for fingerprints...as she said if we got there early...they should be able to do it...and surprise...she was ready for us and had the form prepared this morning.

So we went downstairs to be fingerprinted by the federal police. They took three sets of ink based format. Presumably to digitize in BA? We then brought the cards back to our respective clerks. One took my number to advise us. For my wife they gave me a number and asked that we call the third week of February to check on the status of our tramite. Which works fine, since we're getting out of the heat up here in Cordoba (95F/35C and hotter for Christmas)...spending 5 weeks from the end of January and all of February in and around Bariloche...so back in March to see where we're at.

Anyone know what happens after the fingerprints are approved and reported back to the court?

Hopefully nothing goes missing with the 5 week holiday!

 

[wongjoh]

@ElCordobes - Thanks for the update. Best of luck!

Out of curiosity and if you can share -- what were the reasons you decided to pursue Argentine citizenship? With its demand to pay (already high) taxes on worldwide income, it seems counterintuitive to me so there must be something I am not factoring in.

 

[Napoleon]

I can't even count how many times I had my fingerprints taken here in Argentina, but I have no doubt that if I ever break the law, then the country will have no doubt WHO committed the crime.

;-)