Does receiving an Argentine state pension reduce US Social Security

[sergio]

I posted a topic under "Windfall Elimination Provision" but I think most people don't associate that with receiving a pension in Argentina (or any other country) along with a US national (Social Security) pension. I think some people on this forum might be retired and receiving both pensions so they might have some knowledge of this. A friend who worked in France and contributed to the French national pension scheme has been receiving US Social security for four years. Recently she received a letter informing her that under the above-mentioned WEP her US Social Security would be drastically reduced. In point of fact she has not yet begun to receive the French pension but even if she were, I am stunned that a recipient of US Social Security would be penalized for receiving a pension in another country. Does anyone out there have practical knowledge of this?

 

[GMXam]

This forum post may be better for you to gain information about US Social Security. Not everyone here is of the age to receive it, and many of those that I know who are have left BA and the forum.

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=204060

 

[elhombresinnombre]

A quick scan of the page linked to by GMXam suggests that if one reaches retirement with a complete US contribution record then other sources of pensions, WEP etc are irrelevant. A quick scan of the pages linked to by comodoro in the previous thread suggests that there one may input ones own actual figures and look up various tables to discover ones own benefits and liabilities.

If your friend falls into the first category then it seems there's nothing more to worry about. If she is many years away from retirement then any answer is only going to be approximate and her circumstances - and the law - could well change before then. In any other situation it appears to me that there is no quick answer, no one-size-fits-all and she will have to take the time to go through the calculators on the Social Security site (comodoro's link) with her numbers to find out her personal answers.

If after all that it still doesn't seem right then she probably needs professional advice. As a starting point she could do worse than to air her problem on the misc.legal.moderated usenet newsgroup accessible here - https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/misc.legal.moderated There are some good lawyers and other interesting contributors over there. One thing, be patient: it is an actively moderated newsgroup so new posts from new people won't appear on screen immediately.

Good luck!

 

[sergio]

A quick scan of the page linked to by GMXam suggests that if one reaches retirement with a complete US contribution record then other sources of pensions, WEP etc are irrelevant. A quick scan of the pages linked to by comodoro in the previous thread suggests that there one may input ones own actual figures and look up various tables to discover ones own benefits and liabilities.

If your friend falls into the first category then it seems there's nothing more to worry about. If she is many years away from retirement then any answer is only going to be approximate and her circumstances - and the law - could well change before then. In any other situation it appears to me that there is no quick answer, no one-size-fits-all and she will have to take the time to go through the calculators on the Social Security site (comodoro's link) with her numbers to find out her personal answers.

If after all that it still doesn't seem right then she probably needs professional advice. As a starting point she could do worse than to air her problem on the misc.legal.moderated usenet newsgroup accessible here - https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/misc.legal.moderated There are some good lawyers and other interesting contributors over there. One thing, be patient: it is an actively moderated newsgroup so new posts from new people won't appear on screen immediately.

Good luck!

Thanks. What's a "complete US contribution record"? She started taking Soc Sec at age 62. You need forty quarters (equivalent to ten years) to qualify in the US.

 

[GMXam]

If you check out the pages in the links provided, it says 30 years of employment that pays into SS. That is the complete US contribution record. Age just allows you to begin qualifying to collect. Complete contribution record sets your max allowable, especially if you are collecting from a plan that falls into the category of initiating WEP status.

 

[GMXam]

By the way, if you are attempting to learn about this so you can explain it, you may want to become familiar with the actual content of the social security administration website where it details all of this in the official way. Your friend is relying on chances that the people informing you actually know what they are talking about, and a chance that you actually understand what they are telling you or what you are reading. I’d recommend your friend call the help line and get that information directly from the source. I work in social services and am confident in their ability to staff people who can explain this much better than an expat forum.

 

[sergio]

She did go to her Social Security office but did not get an explanation. The official could only speculate. She's going to return.
You are quite right - it's confusing to me. As there are quite a few people in Argentina collecting pensions from the US and Argentina, I thought someone might clarify this.

 

[elhombresinnombre]

Thanks. What's a "complete US contribution record"? She started taking Soc Sec at age 62. You need forty quarters (equivalent to ten years) to qualify in the US.

I think this means that you need forty quarters to get anything at all. To earn the full payment you will need 30 years/120 quarters. If you have earned less than 120 quarters they will make the payments up - provided you don't have extra pension coming in from elsewhere. They are not in the business of allowing you to make a profit out of this extra taxpayers money they are giving you.

I'm looking at this through eyes familiar with the UK equivalent and I'm not completely familiar with the US way of working but if I understood the bogleheads website Q&A correctly, it takes thirty years of contributions to have a complete contribution record and get a full SS payment.

In the UK if you have only have a partial record of payments you will only get a partial state pension but can claim benefits called Pension Credit to top it up. If you have other sources of income then you won't get so much Pension Credit to the extent that if you have too much other income you won't get any Pensioner Credit at all. But you will get whatever State Pension you are entitled to come what may.

What I think WEP is saying is that if you have additional sources of retirement income, they won't take away the portion of SS you have earned through contributions, but they won't top it up further if doing so would use taxpayers dollars to give you an income higher than the SS level.

If that's not clear I think you are going to have to spend an afternoon reading through those web pages and using those on-line calculators

 

[sergio]

I think this means that you need forty quarters to get anything at all. To earn the full payment you will need 30 years/120 quarters. If you have earned less than 120 quarters they will make the payments up - provided you don't have extra pension coming in from elsewhere. They are not in the business of allowing you to make a profit out of this extra taxpayers money they are giving you.

I'm looking at this through eyes familiar with the UK equivalent and I'm not completely familiar with the US way of working but if I understood the bogleheads website Q&A correctly, it takes thirty years of contributions to have a complete contribution record and get a full SS payment.

In the UK if you have only have a partial record of payments you will only get a partial state pension but can claim benefits called Pension Credit to top it up. If you have other sources of income then you won't get so much Pension Credit to the extent that if you have too much other income you won't get any Pensioner Credit at all. But you will get whatever State Pension you are entitled to come what may.

What I think WEP is saying is that if you have additional sources of retirement income, they won't take away the portion of SS you have earned through contributions, but they won't top it up further if doing so would use taxpayers dollars to give you an income higher than the SS level.

If that's not clear I think you are going to have to spend an afternoon reading through those web pages and using those on-line calculators

Thanks. One thing that I can't understand is that she isn't even receiving the French pension. What if she never takes it? She has already had her US Social Sec. reduced! Strange. I don't really understand how a Social Security pension can be topped up if the person hasn't worked in the US and made contributions for some years. I thought the amount a person receives is based on years of work, how much contributed.

 

[elhombresinnombre]

Thanks. One thing that I can't understand is that she isn't even receiving the French pension. What if she never takes it? She has already had her US Social Sec. reduced! Strange. I don't really understand how a Social Security pension can be topped up if the person hasn't worked in the US and made contributions for some years. I thought the amount a person receives is based on years of work, how much contributed.

My answer to your first question would be that I imagine that the US government sees your friend's French pension as your friend's asset, which it is. And that the US tax payer should not be asked to put tax dollars into topping up her pension when she is perfectly capable of doing it herself with the French pension. Whether or not she is actually claiming the French pension which is rightfully hers is not a relevant concern of the US government.

My answer to your second question is that both GMXam, who knows about these things and I, who is only guessing, say you need to read and understand the US governments own information pages and help sheets amongst other things and the fact that you are asking this question suggests to me that you have not yet done this.

My question to you. Throughout this thread and the preceding one I've had the feeling that you are trying to fit the square peg of US government policy and practice into the round hole of your world view of how you think things ought to be. If I am wrong, I apologise. But you could demonstrate that I am wrong by asking questions that are clearly based on your interaction with the relevant and helpful material that is out there. Or by coming back and saying "Ah yes" I've read 'X' and 'Y' and 'Z' and I understand now."