Electric Bill unexpectedly high

[Ceviche]

It is not surprising to me that electric space heaters are wasteful and expensive to operate.

Agree

 

[carride]

Because it’s cheaper to install all electric and before the luz was regalado.

It is also cheaper to the install single glass pane windows, and not install adequate insulation in ceilings and walls.

Still, I agree 100% electric household including cooking is the real future in many places. Induction stovetop especially. No local emissions of pollutants is now a long term trend. Easy to enforce in cities for all new buildings. Though here in Argentina natural gas (including LNG) is going to have a long run.

 

[elhombresinnombre]

Does anybody affected by these prices have two-way air-conditioning? You'll have to do your own numbers as regards the price of electricity or gas as a fuel but for reference:

Electric heating is 100% efficient (though some of that heating effect is generated as a tiny warming of the connecting leads and house wiring, none of it is lost) so IkW electricity = 1kW heat
Gas heating is between 60-90% efficient - usually more towards the 60% end of the range.
A heat pump such as a reversed air-conditioner is between 200-400% efficient. So 1kW energy will give you between 2-4kW of actual heat. It's not magic: it's because the other systems are using energy to directly heat stuff up but the air-conditioner/heat pump is just a mechanical device which sucks already existing heat out of the surroundings and concentrates it into the room.

To save money we always put our air-conditioners into reverse before we think about using other ways of heating the apartment

 

[Ronnie Hotdogs]

Does anybody affected by these prices have two-way air-conditioning? You'll have to do your own numbers as regards the price of electricity or gas as a fuel but for reference:

Electric heating is 100% efficient (though some of that heating effect is generated as a tiny warming of the connecting leads and house wiring, none of it is lost) so IkW electricity = 1kW heat
Gas heating is between 60-90% efficient - usually more towards the 60% end of the range.
A heat pump such as a reversed air-conditioner is between 200-400% efficient. So 1kW energy will give you between 2-4kW of actual heat. It's not magic: it's because the other systems are using energy to directly heat stuff up but the air-conditioner/heat pump is just a mechanical device which sucks already existing heat out of the surroundings and concentrates it into the room.

To save money we always put our air-conditioners into reverse before we think about using other ways of heating the apartment

Nothing is 100% efficient it’s impossible

 

[steveinbsas]

To save money we always put our air-conditioners into reverse before we think about using other ways of heating the apartment

I have a mini-split frío/calor in the bedroom. On very hot days during the summer, I only use it to cool down the room before going to bed.I have an almost silent USB fan that I sometimes use at night to blow air across the bed.

During the winter, on colder nights, when the temperature is forcast to be near freezing, I turn it on just long enough to take the chill out of the air and I turn on the manta térmica which is under the sheet on the top of the mattress. I usually keep it on all night on the lower of two settings.

I also wear two pair of socks and two "ski-skins" aka "termas elásticas" and usually three layers for my torso. I wear a knit cap "Rocky" style 24/7 all winter and I have several, so that I always have one that has been recently washed.

This was a relatively warm winter, with no very "hard" overnight frosts. I only slept with the mattress warmer on the higher setting five or six nighs and it was never so cold in the living room, which serves only as an unheated passageway between the kitchen and the bedroom, to make my face hurt, at least a little.

 

[FrankPintor]

Could you share more about your experience with this equipment, including its efficiency, cost, capacity, and after-sales service?

Getting the gas connection and approval cost USD 1250, then the generator itself plus installation cost USD 7300. The generator is a Generac 8kVA model. 8kVA should be enough to run the lights, fridge, freezer, and either a few air conditioning units, or 2 underfloor heating units, but it doesn't seem to be able to manage all that, it goes down at what I estimate to be 5-6kVA, which is disappointing.

It comes online automatically after detecting power out for 10s, and it's significantly less noisy than a petrol or diesel generator. Plus it's connected to the mains gas, so no lugging fuel cannisters like with the other types. It generates 220V, a bit less than the 230V supplied by Eden, but we've had no problems with that. About efficiency, I don't know, it would be difficult to calculate, I think. One nice thing is that our internet works, with the modem powered up, and a fibre connection.

I haven't had experience with after-sales service yet, but I soon will have, the initial maintenance is after 50 hours of operation. There's also an app to manage it from my phone, which I haven't connected yet (via WiFi, I think).

 

[elhombresinnombre]

Nothing is 100% efficient it’s impossible

Well, yes....
and no.

The law of conservation of energy means that energy in must equal energy out in some form or other. Gas is no different it's just an awful lot gets wasted in the exhaust etc. A heat pump isn't generating heat (well, it is, but only a tiny bit due to mechanical action) it's sucking in and concentrating existing heat from the outside atmosphere which is how it is notionally providing more heat than the energy used to process it. With bog standard electric heating, all the energy gets converted to heat eventually. Most of your 1kW coming through the meter (which will normally be between 0.02-0.05% inaccurate) will be turned to heat either as a slight warming of the wiring or an intense heating of the coils. Even the light emitted from a radiant heater will decay down to heat. 100% in = 100% out. It's the law ;-)

 

[FrankPintor]

It is also cheaper to the install single glass pane windows, and not install adequate insulation in ceilings and walls.

Still, I agree 100% electric household including cooking is the real future in many places. Induction stovetop especially. No local emissions of pollutants is now a long term trend. Easy to enforce in cities for all new buildings. Though here in Argentina natural gas (including LNG) is going to have a long run.

Yes, the gas connection has a cost, USD 1250 in our case. Being European, I've always been cautious of gas installations, and the ones I've seen around South America have only reinforced this feeling.

Utility costs weren't like they are now, when the house was designed and built. There didn't seem to be any disadvantage to not using gas at the time.

Electric underfloor heating has to be more efficient than heating water and pumping it through a bunch of tubes. Plus, it can never leak. We have ours sectorized into different zones with individual thermostats, which is probably overkill.

And another plus is that the MIL can't blow up an all-electric house so easily.

 

[elhombresinnombre]

Well, yes....
and no.

The law of conservation of energy means that energy in must equal energy out in some form or other. Gas is no different it's just an awful lot gets wasted in the exhaust etc. A heat pump isn't generating heat (well, it is, but only a tiny bit due to mechanical action) it's sucking in and concentrating existing heat from the outside atmosphere which is how it is notionally providing more heat than the energy used to process it. With bog standard electric heating, all the energy gets converted to heat eventually. Most of your 1kW coming through the meter (which will normally be between 0.02-0.05% inaccurate) will be turned to heat either as a slight warming of the wiring or an intense heating of the coils. Even the light emitted from a radiant heater will decay down to heat. 100% in = 100% out. It's the law ;-)

I forgot to say: even the energy that's lost to thermal expansion as the system heats up will be regained as heat when it cools down and contracts again.

 

[RichardAlem]

Does anybody affected by these prices have two-way air-conditioning? You'll have to do your own numbers as regards the price of electricity or gas as a fuel but for reference:

Electric heating is 100% efficient (though some of that heating effect is generated as a tiny warming of the connecting leads and house wiring, none of it is lost) so IkW electricity = 1kW heat
Gas heating is between 60-90% efficient - usually more towards the 60% end of the range.
A heat pump such as a reversed air-conditioner is between 200-400% efficient. So 1kW energy will give you between 2-4kW of actual heat. It's not magic: it's because the other systems are using energy to directly heat stuff up but the air-conditioner/heat pump is just a mechanical device which sucks already existing heat out of the surroundings and concentrates it into the room.

To save money we always put our air-conditioners into reverse before we think about using other ways of heating the apartment

"So 1kW energy will give you between 2-4kW of actual heat." That would violate the First Law of Thermodynamics, the Conservation of Energy.