Expats not happy, why stay?

[soulskier]

I know. I was being a little sarcastic. Long term vision and planning is very difficult in a society that is used to 10 year cycles of total change. It's a sad truth that reverberates through the very fabric of the culture. It's been around so long that people just accept it and move on.

Sorry, hard to gauge sarcasm on the web sometimes.

When I was a kid I played baseball for a few years. One lesson I still use in everyday life that a coach taught me was

"What are you going to do if the ball is hit to you".

It has been instilled in my brain to think ahead and plan my next move.

It might not be that ironic that very few, if any, major league baseball players have come from Argentina.

 

[perry]

Originally Posted by gouchobob
I would agree with these comments. The difficulty of making the transition is much harder I think than people realize and the reason probably 80% return home after a year or two in a new country. I think Argentina can be a particularly difficult place to adapt to. Let's face it on the surface the people aren't particularly welcoming, accomplishing daily tasks that were simple back home become arduous here, etc. It's a completely different culture that has both its good points and bad. I commend the people that can make the adaptation but fully understand the majority that can not, and this is where a lot of the complaining comes from you hear on this site.

posted by Citigirl
Pericles - what is it in this post that you disagree with so vehemently?

1) 80% plus return after a year or two leave within 2 years? I would say that is right on target, if not perhaps a little low.
2) People aren't particularly welcoming? Well, everyone has different opinions on this but for quite a few people, they feel this is a difficult place to make friends and assimilate.
3) Accomplishing simple tasks become arduous? I don't think that anyone here would disagree with that.

FWIW - I don't think gouchobob was posting anything all that negative (or in fact shocking). He also followed up with "It's a completely different culture that has both its good points and bad. "

Nobody is saying one should move to Argentina and waste all their time complaining. However, I think it's delusional to think one would move to a foreign country and NOT have some challenges. And for many, those challenges may prove to be too much.

Although again, my sense is that the vast majority of posters here aren't necessarily "expats" but people who are here for a year or two and as such, may have a slightly different view point.

Pericles reply.

I will reply to your post Citygirl and say that their is truth in the remarks that 80 percent of people who come here leave in 2 years . That is a fact and well known . I come from a family of immigrants and understand fully that it is very hard to adapt to a new society . I remember my mother stories about how much she disliked Australia and the people when she first came there in 1957. She found them crude and rascist and was culture shocked for many years but she never gave up and over time she adapted and grew to love her home country and her people. For her now Australia and its people are the best in the world and she would never consider living anywhere else.

She of course never came to Australia as a foreigner looking for a short stay she came to make a go of it and like millions of other emmigrants at that time they flourished and adapted.

My problem with comments about Argentina being particularly hard on new immigrants or the people are not welcoming to new immigrants well I do not agree that this the case for most european and north american emigrants who are accepted and offered residency easier than they would in North America, Europe, or Australia. These societies are difficult to even get a visa let alone residency . Do you know Citigirl how hard it is to get a visa to go to Australia or the United States for some argentinians and also they must pay for the priviledge of just asking for this visa. If they wish to get residency its a nightmare of many years of frustations that make the argentinian DNI simple in comparison.

Thats where I vehemetly disagree with the comments people are making that seem to be misinfomation at best .

In regards to comments posted about the rascism of Argentinians against Paraguyuans, Bolivians, peruvians etc while I agree the comments heard are not friendly and there is discrimination here on a social level . I see this with my own eyes as I have paraguyuan workers who I respect very much . This is a societal problem that is causing a lot of pressure on Buenos Aires.

But with all that Argentina is uniquely accepting all immigrants from Paraguay, Bolivia , Peru and other latin american societies.

Chile which is the IMF darling and also many posters on this forum does not accept one tenth of the immigrants we do and certainly their society is even less accepting than Argentina on Peruvians and Bolivians. Argentinas policies while problematic for Buenos Aires once again shows the accepting welcoming attitude of the government here if not the society in general.

Argentina is unique in Latin America for its open border policy completely the opposite of other developed countries in the region like Brazil, Chile, and Uruguay.

Argentinian people in general once introduced by mutual friends are welcoming and friendly . They are reserved at first but over time they will become wonderful loyal friends. I have the same friends for 5 years and they have been a rock always at all times.

I have read comments here from the original poster gouchobob and others which show scant knowledge of the culture as well as expressing a personal view that for many long termers is not true.

As the original poster of this thread said I am also suprised at all the negativity posted about Argentina and Argentinians as for me it is certainly not been my reality.

 

[soulskier]

Hey, how about a time out everyone?

I posted a few funny photos in Argentina.

 

[cassiem13]

I have no more interest in quibbling with you, Hot. You have made up your mind about Buenos Aires and are leaving. Have a nice trip. Hope you are happy in Mendicino.

HYT, are you moving to Mendocino? As in, the little town in Northern California? Just curious.. that's my hometown

Also, just had to throw my two cents in about something you said somewhere in this thread (I'm only about halfway through)... you compare BA to San Diego in a lot of respects, but I think it's just important to remember that the two aren't really comparable. San Diego (where I lived for 6 years) has only 1.2 million people, and that's from Chula Vista/National City all the way east to La Mesa and technically reaches farther north than La Jolla, if I remember correctly. Anytime you get 9 million (that's the pop. of BA, no?) people together in one city, it's bound to be a quilombo.

I've only lived in my little rural Mendo, San Diego, and a six-month stint in pop. 300,000 Granada, Spain. This is my first big city, and I still marvel at so much about life here. I often wonder how much of it is the same in other major cities across the world, though, and how much is unique to BA.

Finally, I know other people have made this point (and this is not directed at anyone specifically), but I think the most important thing when experiencing a new culture, whether you're living there or just visiting, is to refrain from comparisons. It's natural to do to some point, as it's a way to relate your new life to what you previously knew, but embracing the new culture is important, as well as adapting. This doesn't mean you need to like everything about it, but... Let's see.. would you compare everything about an ex-partner to a new partner? No, you have to learn to be with the new person, what you love, what you hate, and how to make it work. And if you don't want to (or can't) make it work, it's time to cut the cord. Yep! That's it. Living in different cities is like having different partners. That's my analogy and I'm sticking to it

Anyway, I'm mostly just curious about the Mendocino comment.

 

[SaraSara]

And as far as "expats" go like those on the board, most Argentines can't be bothered to become friends with people that they 1) met anytime after university and 2) are foreigners that are only going to stick around for a short time and then piss off back to their own country.

Args. are big on LASTING, lifelong friendships - they tend to form strong emotional commitments. When that kind of a friend moves away, it is too painful. So, they tend to shy away from people they know are here for just a year or two.

 

[citygirl]

Pericles - I agree with what you posted - I think we are misconstruing the word "welcoming". Yes, it is certainly easier to come here than the US or Australia. I wouldn't disagree with you on that. I think the idea of "welcoming" that I am envisioning is the ability to easily assimilate into the culture here. And from that level, I don't think Argentina is the most "welcoming" of countries for reasons such as SaraSara posted. Fully acclimating into a city (and I can only speak for my experiences in BsAs) where the vast majority of porteños have life long friendships and family is not the easiest thing - or at least it hasn't been for me.

I think part of it is that in big cities in the US (which is my point of reference) very few people are "from there". It's much more common for people to move all over and so forming new friendships is a constant. And most people in big cities in the US don't have their families close, so friends become the new family. Whereas here, it seems from my experience, most people have been friends with their friends forever, have their families close by and as such - unless you marry into it - it can be difficult to become a real part of the life here.

Again - as I think I've posted many a time - I love Argentina and appreciate it for all its quirks and distractions and little idiosyncrasies. However, I personally haven't found it the most easy place to form a life, especially as a single woman who is not in her early 20s and just looking for people to hang out with in bars.

ETA - you wrote "
I have read comments here by this author and others which show scant knowledge of the culture as well as expressing a personal view that for many long termers is not true." I'm not sure if this is directed towards me or not. I have never claimed to be an expert on the culture here. And my personal view and the things I've expressed are just that - "personal". If I have suggested otherwise, apologies.

 

[perry]

Pericles - I agree with what you posted - I think we are misconstruing the word "welcoming". Yes, it is certainly easier to come here than the US or Australia. I wouldn't disagree with you on that. I think the idea of "welcoming" that I am envisioning is the ability to easily assimilate into the culture here. And from that level, I don't think Argentina is the most "welcoming" of countries for reasons such as SaraSara posted. Fully acclimating into a city (and I can only speak for my experiences in BsAs) where the vast majority of porteños have life long friendships and family is not the easiest thing - or at least it hasn't been for me.

I think part of it is that in big cities in the US (which is my point of reference) very few people are "from there". It's much more common for people to move all over and so forming new friendships is a constant. And most people in big cities in the US don't have their families close, so friends become the new family. Whereas here, it seems from my experience, most people have been friends with their friends forever, have their families close by and as such - unless you marry into it - it can be difficult to become a real part of the life here.

Again - as I think I've posted many a time - I love Argentina and appreciate it for all its quirks and distractions and little idiosyncrasies. However, I personally haven't found it the most easy place to form a life, especially as a single woman who is not in her early 20s and just looking for people to hang out with in bars.

ETA - you wrote "
I have read comments here by this author and others which show scant knowledge of the culture as well as expressing a personal view that for many long termers is not true." I'm not sure if this is directed towards me or not. I have never claimed to be an expert on the culture here. And my personal view and the things I've expressed are just that - "personal". If I have suggested otherwise, apologies.

Thank you Citigirl for your long expressive post and no that comment was not directed to you . I welcome always your interesting input into the forum.

 

[steveinbsas]

I would agree with these comments. The difficulty of making the transition is much harder I think than people realize and the reason probably 80% return home after a year or two in a new country. I think Argentina can be a particularly difficult place to adapt to. Let's face it on the surface the people aren't particularly welcoming, accomplishing daily tasks that were simple back home become arduous here, etc. It's a completely different culture that has both its good points and bad. I commend the people that can make the adaptation but fully understand the majority that can not, and this is where a lot of the complaining comes from you hear on this site.

This actually sums it up (for those reading this thread for the first time today as a result of the link allcraz provided in the thread: Life in Buenos Aires and something that I don't seem to understand.

Anyone who reads through this thread will notice that many who posted comments in it are no longer active on the forum. Most of them left Argentina...including gouchobob and HotYogaTeacher.

 

[sesamosinsal]

It actually isn't so that we didn't do research before moving here. The truth is it is very hard to find accurate information on a place until you have lived there and know where to look.

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I just had to respond to this: Um, duh?

 

[steveinbsas]

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I just had to respond to this: Um, duh?

I spent six months looking for my first apartment. When I finally found it I made an offer to buy it immediately and never regretted it. I did sell it just over two and a half years later (actually, Perry sold it), but I stayed in Capital Federal another year.

Now I am in the south of Prov. Bs. As.

I was never unhappy in CF, but I am happier where I am now than I've ever been in my life.

Perhaps I'll always be an expat (by definition), but soon I'll also be a citizen of Argentina (by choice).