Family on a tourist visa (planning to stay a couple of years)

[Tilda]

I thought that the rules are very clear, you get 180 days every 365 days. I would guess that with the new computer system you would be flagged immediately if you try to return for another 90 days too early.

Many countries consider that you have emigrated if you live more than 180 days outside the border without a valid reason. Eg. diplomats or foreign posting for a national company. I don’t know Germany’s policy on that.

 

[leaven.guise]

I

I thought that the rules are very clear, you get 180 days every 365 days. I would guess that with the new computer system you would be flagged immediately if you try to return for another 90 days too early.

Many countries consider that you have emigrated if you live more than 180 days outside the border without a valid reason. Eg. diplomats or foreign posting for a national company. I don’t know Germany’s policy on that.

I think that it depends on the reason why you stay more than 180 days away from the country where you have the center of your interests... for example, if you have to take several trip for work amounting to, for example, 270 days a year, that should not be a problem, as long as you can prove that the center of your life is where you have the residency.

Also, the important thing (I know that at least for Germany, and regarding my wife who has a permanent working visa there) is that you can't stay more than 180 days consecutively abroad, or you will loose your visa (and residency, I assume)...

 

[steveinbsas]

The question here is how a family with their centre of economic, social and personal interest in another country (that is to say, working, paying taxes, going to the doctor and having family, friends in Germany) can live in Argentina for periods of 4/5 months without breaking the law or committing fraudulent acts... especially considering that those periods of 4/5 months can be cut in half quite often with trips to visit family in the US.

The location or "center of your social and personl interest" is of no concern whatsoever to Argentine migraciones. How much time you physically spend n Argentina is what matters. The number of consecutive days matters when caluclating an overstay of the 90 day tourist permit, while the total number of days in a 12 month period matter when identifying a "pesudo tourist, even if they are broken up by border hopping.

If you overstay you pay the fine when you leave, but there is no guarantee you will be allowed to reenter The more overstays you have, the greater the chace you will be denied reentry. Even if you cut your two four or five month periods in half, you will be spending eight to ten months of the year in Argentina.

Not sure how we could identified as tax evaders by Argentinan authorities as well, since we work and pay taxes in Germany where the tax rate is higher than here, and we do not generate any income here (all income comes from real estate in other countries, where taxes are consequently paid).

If you have real estate income in other countries you will probably qualify for the visa rentista. If I understand correctly, you would not be subject to pay income taxes in Argetnina until after you have had temporary residency for one year. Argentina may or may not have a tax treaty with Germany regarding active foreign income, but I'm not sure about passive income from rents.

If you never get temporary residency you will never be bothered by AFIP and never have to make tax declarations,. If you do get temporary reidency and renew it, then you will have some obligations to make decalarations to AFIP. if the foreign rental income is taxable here. If you don't declare anything and you leave after the second year, you may not have anything to worry aout. You can just go and will probably never hear a word abut it.

Nonetheles, then you would leave as a tax evader if you actually had income or assets that was taxable here.

I think the world has changed, many people have now more than ever the freedom to call home different places without being considered criminals, especially if the components of their family come from - and live in - different countries (four in our case).

Argentina doesn't care how many other countries you or your relatives live in. Argenina will, however, consider you a criminal if you break the laws here and one of those laws is abuse of the tourist visa (aka being a "fake tourist"). It only takes ONE imigmration official at a point of entry to make that determination and deny entry for up to five years! Does that happen often, no. Could it happen to you and your family,any time you try to reenter? yes.

It is an important point that overstaying a 90 day visa is not considered a crime, and you cannot be forced to pay the fine when you leave, Nonetheless, you won't be able to reenter the country unless you do pay the fine before you once again set foot on Argentine soil.

That being said, you could be denied reentry at anytime by any border official for having too many" overstays: If, in the official's opinion, it looks like you are coming and going to aviod complince with the laws regarding temporary residency as well as being a "pseudo " tourist.

If you want to have (exericse) the "freedom" to come and go as you please and not bear the consequences of being identified s a "pseudo tourist" it would be advisable NOT to put yourself and your wife and child at the mercy of the whim of a border agent who is having a bad day or is PO'ed at foreigners who think the imigration laws should not apply to them because they do not consider themsleves to be doing anything "criminal" in the first place.

All of that being said, I was curious to understand whether it's better to pay the overstay fee at the airport each time, or each time to ask for an extension for periods which should not exceed 2/7 weeks (we will never need more), considering that this might be a repeated process in the future...

The extensions (prorrogas) are good for 90 days...never more..never less. As far as I know, you can ony ask for one 90 day extension in a 12 month period. If you get an extension and leave two to seven weeks later, returning before that 90 day prorroga has expired, you will not get a new 90 day visa! This has been known and posted about here in the past. Border officials cannot "overide" a prorroga and yu wil not be able to ask for another prorroga. Obviously, if you don't leave before your prorroga expires you will have an overstay and you will pay the fines when you leave. Additionally, there is NO guarantee (unless you have appied for citizenship) that you will be allowed to reneter the country after repeated overstays! It can happen the first time. The more "repeated" the "proces" becomes, the greater the chance it will be stopped.

I suggest you enter three words in the search box: abuse, tourist, visa. If you have more questions after that I will try to provide more answers.

 

[steveinbsas]

The location or "center of your social and personl interest" is of no concern whatsoever to Argentine migraciones. How much time you physically spend n Argentina is what matters. The number of consecutive days matters when caluclating an overstay of the 90 day tourist permit, while the total number of days in a 12 month period matter when identifying a "pesudo tourist, even if they are broken up by border hopping.

The number of days of a 12 month period also apply to temporary residents who are required to be "in country" at least 183 days of the year in order to be able to renew their tempoorary residents.

Permanent residents only need to set foot on Argentine soil once every two years and they can leave immediately.

 

[Alby]

To simply all this information, I would say two things:

1. This scheme of frequent entry and exits and re-entries you propose creates no tax obligations whatsoever.
2. It seems highly unlikely that you will be able to pull it off for two years. Assume that sooner or later, probably well before the two-year goal is reached, a migration official at one of the ports of entry will put an end to the plan.

 

[Jtee125]

How long is a pattern of 3 months in Argentina and then 1 or 2 months outside of Argentina sustainable from a Migraciones perspective?

 

[sts7049]

Thank you for you insight @steveinbsas.

The question here is how a family with their centre of economic, social and personal interest in another country (that is to say, working, paying taxes, going to the doctor and having family, friends in Germany) can live in Argentina for periods of 4/5 months without breaking the law or committing fraudulent acts... especially considering that those periods of 4/5 months can be cut in half quite often with trips to visit family in the US. Not sure how we could identified as tax evaders by Argentinan authorities as well, since we work and pay taxes in Germany where the tax rate is higher than here, and we do not generate any income here (all income comes from real estate in other countries, where taxes are consequently paid).

I think the world has changed, many people have now more than ever the freedom to call home different places without being considered criminals, especially if the components of their family come from - and live in - different countries (four in our case).

All of that being said, I was curious to understand whether it's better to pay the overstay fee at the airport each time, or each time to ask for an extension for periods which should not exceed 2/7 weeks (we will never need more), considering that this might be a repeated process in the future...

Thank you for your feedback!

the world has changed, but immigration requirements are what they are. argentina's border policies in the past have created this perception i think that people can just come and live here as they please and nobody will care, but that seems to be less so these days. especially for what you are wanting to do with your family for the length of time you desire.

you will either have to accept the risk that comes with being denied, or pursue another option like citizenship or rentista visa.

unfortunately there is no such thing as a free lunch...

 

[steveinbsas]

How long is a pattern of 3 months in Argentina and then 1 or 2 months outside of Argentina sustainable from a Migraciones perspective?

That's a very good question, but keeping in mind the "plan" first detailed in this thread is to spend as long as four or five months at a time in Argentina, with a break of three to eight weeks in between.

An additional short (international) break at each halfway point of the four or five month stretch. will do nothing whatsoever to appease migraciones. In fact, it could (and probably) will at some point) make matters worse as far as migraciones is concerned. The more times you come and go in "defiance" of the imigration rules (aka laws), the greater the chances of being denied reentry for up to five years.

I think that it depends on the reason why you stay more than 180 days away from the country where you have the center of your interests... for example, if you have to take several trip for work amounting to, for example, 270 days a year, that should not be a problem, as long as you can prove that the center of your life is where you have the residency.

Argentine migraciones doesn't care in the least why you "stay more than 180 days away from the country where you have your center of interests." They care about how much time you and your family, all foreigners, are here in this country, not somewhere else.If you are living here for more than 183 days of the year, no matter how many times you come and go, you should have temporary residency, even if getting it gives you a headache.

Repeatedly leaving and reentering just to get a new 90 day visa is not legal. It's obvious that you believe that leaving and rentering repeatedly is allowed if your travels give the appearance of tourism, as your travels in and out of Argentina did from March, 7th to April, 7th and again June, 4th to the 20th, when you "were traveling a bit around South America." during the thre months granted bythe tourist visa.

The fact that you got a new 90 day visas each time when you reentered this year probably gave you more than 180 days to be here with a "valid" 90 day permit. I think it's the main reason some people think making the "visa runs" is a viable option to getting temporary residency, thinking that keeps them "legit" with migraciones as they make the repeated border runs.

I am asuming that you and your wife got new 90 day visas each time you entered in March and June and August and you probably got a new 90 day visa when you returned in October. You can check your current immigration status on line. Unless your wiife asks for a prorroga before her current 90 day tourist permit expires in a couple weeks from now, she will have an overstay when you leave on December 18th.

I don't know if children traveling with their parents are also subject to the overstay fine. If she asks for a prorroga (no more than en days) before her current permit expires, it will expire in late February. There is a chance she will be able to get a new 90 day permit if she reenters after the proroga expires, but not before.

By this time, you already have a track record with migraciones which might be construed as "abuse" of the tourist visa. If you continue your travels as planned, it will probably happen in the next year. When it finally happens is when things will get "messy" (using your excellent choice of words). If and when they deny, entry they won't allow you in, period, even to retreive your belongings.

But wait! There is HOPE!

It just isn't want you want to hear.

There IS something you CAN do while you are home for the holidays that will greaty increase your chance of being allowed back into Argentina IF you are "challenged" by migraciones when you try to reenter.

That is to get the required paperwork together to apply for the visa rentista and be prepared to show it to migaciones upon arrival as you try to begin of your second year as pseudo-tourists.

The question here is how a family with their centre of economic, social and personal interest in another country (that is to say, working, paying taxes, going to the doctor and having family, friends in Germany) can live in Argentina for periods of 4/5 months without breaking the law or committing fraudulent acts.

"Abuse" of the tourist visa in Argentina has been defined by Bajo_Cero2 as a fraud and it is illegal.

As I previously indicated, it only takes one official at a point of entry to call you out on it and put a stop to it. The only recourse you would have in that case (to prveent your immediate deportation) is if you have already applied for citizenship and your lawyer (while you are being detained at the airport) can get an order from a judge to let you in.

I suggest that you be prepared to apply for the visa rentista when you return in February and hope you don't have any trouble getting back in then. Having the required docs for temporary residency with you at that point could make all the difference. You might get back in withno questions asked, but I wouldn't risk it if I was in your shoes. If you contiune to travel as planned in 2023, each trip will increase your chances of not being allowed back in..as well as being barred form reentry in the future.

It's imporant to know that you will be able to travel with "residencia precaria" as soon as migraciones accepts your application for temporary residency, even before it is approved.

So yeah, we like to move around and the only thing avoiding us to do so is our son going to school, but we still do it as often as wen can... we have no intention of exploiting the system, we just need a place away from war (and winter now) where to stay for a couple of years...

Migraciones doesn't care about what you like, especially when it comes to your desire to travel.

If you just came here to stay for two years without leaving the country as you wait out the war and winter weather, you probably wouldn't have any problems with migraciones, but you may have already come close to the limits of what they will tolerate.

Regardelss of your intentions, if abusing the tourist visa and deliberately being in non-compliance with residency requirments isn't "exploiting the system" I don't know how else to describe it.

but knowing how complicated and messy the system is here, I was given the impression from other expats that the wisest solution was not to apply for a visa which we would only use for one or two extra years and would come with an endless number of different headaches attached...

I daresay that being denied reentry and banned for a number of years from returning would be a lot more messy than applying for the legal temporary residency it appears that you are already well qualified for on the basis of your passive and stable income from rental properties.

Yes, getting temporary residency require some effort (basically all paperwork), but almost everyone who gets it does it on their own and has to renew it annually.

I never had an overstay and I only got one prorroga, just before I applied for the visa rentista. I did not use a lawyer. and I did everything from Argentina. I did have help from my brother and another friend in the USA in gettng the docs together, having them receive the Apostille and sending them to me.

If you can get the docs you need while you are back in Germany, you wil be able to aply the legal residency for yourself and your family after you return.

If you have any questions, you can have a free consultation with an immigration lawyer that I have previously done business with (regarding other matters)

His name is Javier Segura at Cassiopeia Immigration Services. He speaks perfect English, has a great deal of experience, and is very friendly

Home Corporate - Cassiopeia

Somos una firma especializada en prestar servicios migratorios de alta calidad. Mas de 15 años de trayectoria en inmigración nos avalan.

www.cassiopeia.com.ar

I went to migraciones twice with a "freindly translator" and got the temporary residency without any difficulty.

 

[Tilda]

I don't know if children traveling with their parents are also subject to the overstay fine.

I don’t know how it is now, but I can’t imagine that the rules have changed.

15 years ago we had to pay an overstay fine for our 8 month old baby who had entered the country when he was 4 weeks old. Dad is Argentinian and I had permanent residency at the time, but we forgot that the baby only had a foreign nationality.

Our status didn’t matter. He was his own individual.

 

[Jtee125]

I thought that the rules are very clear, you get 180 days every 365 days. I would guess that with the new computer system you would be flagged immediately if you try to return for another 90 days too early.

Many countries consider that you have emigrated if you live more than 180 days outside the border without a valid reason. Eg. diplomats or foreign posting for a national company. I don’t know Germany’s policy on that.

Is this every rolling 365 day period or every calendar year?