Ground Zero Mosque

M1ke said:

Thanks for re-posting, I missed that one. Good article.

darmanad said:
No one seriously questions the implications of the 1st amendment. If there is compliance with local zoning/building codes any religious structure is "legal." The issue is broader than that. It involves the propriety of a mosque (and Cordoba will house a mosque for Muslims only unlike the non-denominational prayer center in the pentagon) so close to the site of the most horrific attack on USA soil by what is almost universally agreed was a cadre of so-called Muslim extremists.

So what you're saying is that the 1st amendment shouldn't apply in certain situations? I can see the changes we can make to it now:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. *

* Unless if you're Muslim and want to assemble less than three blocks to where there has been a terror attack.

And the cultural center will have a prayers room. How is that a mosque?

darmanad said:
This is a more incisive question. All Muslims are not culpable for what happened on 9/11, but the supremacist belief system of all Muslims, aka Islam, is responsible for what happened on 9/11.

So using your logic it's safe to say that Christianity is responsible for the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, right?

darmanad said:
Quran verses 9;29 and 9;50:
9;29:
"Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued;
9;50:
Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush

Want me to dig up Bible quotes for you? Pretty sure the Christians can do better than that.

darmanad said:
Sorry , I do not comprehend this.

See my above attempt to understand your logic.

darmanad said:
allegation of racism or bigotry by those opposed to Cordoba are an example of unsupported nonsense.

So tell me, what have you done for the first responders?
 
orwellian,
You did not comprehend the plain meaning of my words which I thought were pretty clear. No one contends that there isn't a legal right to build a mosque. No one argues we should make a legal exception to the 1st amendment. Got that? The issue is whether the site is appropriate for the placement of a mosque given the totality of circumstances, notwithstanding the legal right to build one. Your attempt to ridicule by reiterating the 1st amendment only demonstrates a lack of decent reading comprehension skills.

I am informed the Cordoba Project will house a mosque. This distinguishes it from the 92nd St YMCA, the pentagon chapel, etc. Yes, there will probably be other non-denominational facilities as well, but there will be a mosque. Who will use that?

You state: "So using [my] logic it's safe to say that Christianity is responsible for the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, right? "
Are you saying that because I believe Islamic religious doctrine motivated the invasion of the USA that ipso facto Christianity motivated the US invasion of Iraq? My position is that certain Muslims launched an attack on the US because they perceived the US was at war with Islam by virtue of US support for the existence of Israel and the US presence in lands considered holy to Muslims and off limits to infidels, (Saudi Arabia in particular). That, and the killing of Muslims in Lebanon by Lebanese Christian forces in concert with the Israelis. That is what I recall Osama Bin Laden published as his rationale. Islamic religious authorities motivated and supported the 9/11 attack by Al Qaida.

I am not very knowledgeable about Christian or biblical theology, but I do not believe that contemporary Christian doctrine could so easily be interpreted to motivate making war on Iraq as the Islamic authorities can be employed to support the attack on the USA (and England, Spain, Australia/Bali, Hindu Mumbai, Russia/ Chechnya, etc). Maybe, you should dig up the bible passages that you contend support/motivate the US invasion of Iraq.
I do not rule out that George Bush, himself, may have an had an evangelical component in his desire to invade Iraq and Afghanistan; however, the decision to invade Iraq was conceived by others and was driven by non-religious factors. Our invasion of Iraq was ostensibly based upon a concern that collaborators of 9/11 were amassing WMD to use in other attacks against the US and that it was necessary to preemptively depose Saddam Hussein to prevent the smoking gun from turning into a mushroom cloud. In point of fact, I submit that the thirst for oil was a greater factor in the US decision to invade Iraq than any religiously based motive.

Sorry, I fail to see why you assert that based upon my position logic compels that it is safe to say Christianity is responsible for the invasion of Iraq. One isn't logically compelled by the other. Am I missing your point?

Also, what is the relevance of what I did for the first responders? And more importantly, what does that have to do with your accusation of racism? I trust you concur that it is a totally bogus claim that those opposed to Cordoba, or Muslims themselves, are racists. It's a belief system, not a race.
 
Sleuth said:
Are people really so stupid that they take things they hear at face value without doing any research on their own?

Daniel Moynihan, ex senator of NY, is given credit for that.
I agree that people should do more research rather than take everything they hear at face value. I think a lot of people adopt the words, ideas, facts from one source (or severely limited sources) for their position on a subject. Of course, the amount of time one can spend raising one's consciousness (as opposed to putting bread on the table, for example) is limited, although thanks to the net so many sources are at one's finger tips.
Ideally, we should all strive to keep an open mind about subjects as events unfold. I think the Keith Oberman tape you linked addressed some important issues. Most important to me is why the heck is the US wasting its resources trying to nation build in Iraq and Afghanistan when we are not wanted there by the inhabitants and the majority of Americans now have animousity towards Muslims. The recent Economist poll puts the Americans against Cordoba at a more than 3:1 ratio. http://www.economist.com/blogs/demo...slamic_cultural_centre_sorta_near_ground_zero

For another point of view on Cordoba, you might want to spend some time on this piece- http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/f...l-abdul-rauf-and-his-mosque-of-tolerance.html
 
darmanad said:
You did not comprehend the plain meaning of my words which I thought were pretty clear. No one contends that there isn't a legal right to build a mosque. No one argues we should make a legal exception to the 1st amendment. Got that? The issue is whether the site is appropriate for the placement of a mosque given the totality of circumstances, notwithstanding the legal right to build one.

No they weren't that clear actually. But since we both agree that they have the legal right to do it, where's the problem? If you don't like something, you should change the law. Until then, let them exercise their right to have a cultural center where they wish.

darmanad said:
I am informed the Cordoba Project will house a mosque.

Well we might have different definition of what a prayer room and a church or mosque is.

darmanad said:
Are you saying that because I believe Islamic religious doctrine motivated the invasion of the USA that ipso facto Christianity motivated the US invasion of Iraq?
...
My position is that certain Muslims launched an attack on the US because they perceived the US was at war with Islam by virtue of US support for the existence of Israel and the US presence in lands considered holy to Muslims and off limits to infidels, (Saudi Arabia in particular). That, and the killing of Muslims in Lebanon by Lebanese Christian forces in concert with the Israelis. That is what I recall Osama Bin Laden published as his rationale. Islamic religious authorities motivated and supported the 9/11 attack by Al Qaida.

Islamic doctrine didn't motivate the attacks on 9/11 (even if we suppose Bin Laden did it). Your constant attacks against other Arab nations and blind support of Israel did, as I believe this is what Bin Laden always seem to talk about about back when he was alive (and he never took responsibility for the attacks, in fact he denied taking part in them).
And I wasn't saying that. My point is that you think that it's not appropriate to build a mosque near ground zero because you think that you were attacked by Muslims. So what do you think the Muslims in Iraq would think if there were to build a church in e.g Baghdad? Don't you think it would be pretty hard to find a place there to build where an American bomb hasn't exploded in a two block radius?


darmanad said:
Also, what is the relevance of what I did for the first responders? And more importantly, what does that have to do with your accusation of racism? I trust you concur that it is a totally bogus claim that those opposed to Cordoba, or Muslims themselves, are racists. It's a belief system, not a race.

Islam is a religion yes and technically it's wrong to call that racism. I believe the right term would be islamophobic. I should maybe have used the word 'prejudice' instead.
The relevance to the first responders is that you, and rest of the islamophobes, claim that this building is an insult to the victims. But if you are so interesting in protesting this issue, where were you when the first responders had to go to Cuba to get treatment?
 
darmanad said:
Most important to me is why the heck is the US wasting its resources trying to nation build in Iraq and Afghanistan when we are not wanted there by the inhabitants [...]

Like you correctly pointed out; because of the oil. What's funny though is that the number one justification these people use is that you are there to help these Muslims. We'll die for you, but we'll never let you have a cultural center on the lower side of Manhattan! This is having two conflicting opinions at the same time.

darmanad said:
The recent Economist poll puts the Americans against Cordoba at a more than 3:1 ratio.

Which is kinda how many Americans that thought Saddam was involved in 9/11.
 
polostar88 said:
Alright tard...here's a question for you...how many churches have been built in Iraq or Afghanistan lately? Are you aware the Assyrian Christian community in Iraq, that had lived there for the longest time, has recently had to leave because of persecution? Do you know that, in fact, you're not allowed to build churches in Saudi Arabia, etc., and that Christian Copts in Egypt live under constant physical threat, threats of rioting, etc.?

My guess is you're not just being rhetorical...you probably did think that churches are being built all over Iraq, Afghanistan, etc., as we speak. You're deeply ignorant.

Orwellian will you answer this post or just avoid it hoping no one has noticed your profound ignorance?
 
polostar88 said:
Orwellian will you answer this post or just avoid it hoping no one has noticed your profound ignorance?

Chill dude, I just missed your post.

polostar88 said:
how many churches have been built in Iraq or Afghanistan lately? Are you aware the Assyrian Christian community in Iraq, that had lived there for the longest time, has recently had to leave because of persecution?

Probably not many. But from your reasoning none can be built.

polostar88 said:
Do you know that, in fact, you're not allowed to build churches in Saudi Arabia [...]?

No that doesn't surprise me. Do you know that Saudi Arabia is a U.S ally? If you're so keen on bringing democracy and women's rights to the world, then why don't you invade Saudi Arabia?
 
Stewart: Fox Smears Owner Alwaleed bin Talal

Posted on August 24, 2010 by Juan

Jon Stewart points out that Fox and its newscasters are vilifying Saudi Prince And financiier Alwaleed bin Talal as a financial backer of Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the Muslim-American clergyman who seeks to build a community center in lower Manhattan. The problem: Alwaleed bin Talal is part owner of Fox News. Stewart’s special correspondents debate whether Fox is just pure evil or terminally stupid. I vote for both.
Apparently most of the country actually prefers Democrats to Republicans, thinks well of Obama’s major initiatives, and just wants the jobs to come back. All this noise about tea parties and vilifying Muslim Americans is being generated by just three guys– the Koch brothers and Rupert Murdoch. And poor Prince Alwaleed’s capital is being used for Islamophobia. For a Saudi prince to help fund Fox Cable News is like having a prominent African American entrepreneur fund a Steppin Fetchit remake. If I were he, I’d sell my shares in Fox, or maybe sue Newscorp for libel. I know suing yourself for libel could be complicated, but surely there is a tax break in there somewhere.


http://www.juancole.com/2010/08/stewart-fox-smears-owner-alwaleed-bin-talal.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+juancole%2Fymbn+%28Informed+Comment%29&utm_content=Yahoo%21+Mail
 
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