How did you get over the last threshold to fluency in Spanish?

[London2Baires]

An interesting thread.

I suggest you just go as immersive as possible, put in effort, and then time will do the rest. Good Luck!

PS: Here is some related research for you all, enjoy! :

At What Age Does Our Ability to Learn a New Language Like a Native Speaker Disappear?

Despite the conventional wisdom, a new study shows picking up the subtleties of grammar in a second language does not fade until well into the teens

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[Girino]

What is fluency? What is proficiency? What is native-level? What is your comfort threshold?

There is no strict definition. In Europe we have a framework of reference for languages to assess how much we can ‘function’ in another language. The highest level is C2, corresponding to ‘Mastery or proficiency’. You can read a description of each level by clicking on the link above.

If you have taken a C2 exam, you saw it is not hard core, you can still make mistakes but you can easily understand and be understood. This doesn’t mean you speak flawlessly and you are able to express yourself as you would do in your native language.

For example, I am a C2 in both English and Spanish, and you can see where I stand ‘linguistically’ by reading this post. I am in no way native, nor I could pass for one. I have been studying English on a daily basis for the past 20 years, but I have never lived in an English-speaking country and I don’t have an English-speaking partner. I started studying English when I was already a teenager with non-native teachers. I traveled to an English-speaking country for the first time when I was 19 y.o. I don’t write/speak flawlessly; yet, I can spot mistakes in article on La Nación or in what native speakers write, and I can understand when something has been written by a native speaker or not.

But the European framework is based on functionality, only, which far from perfection or native-level.

What is native-level? For me, it is someone who can think effortlessly in a language, and that you would mistake for a native. But this is just me. And there are different shades of ‘native’ speakers, from the hot dog cart guy to an English philology teacher. They are both native, yet one has a limited range of expression, makes plenty of grammar mistakes, but speak effortlessly, dream in his own native language, lives in its native country like the other one.

Can you reach native-level by living abroad? Yes, under certain conditions, including personal factors.

Having a native parent is enough to make you native? No. Family only partially contribute to one’s own education, even within your native country. However, it is helpful if they make you study the grammar, expose you to authentic materials (books and newspapers and movies from the native country)... e.g. if they substitute the natural exposure you would have had if living abroad (going to school, attending social events, interacting with other native speakers etc.)

Can you reach a native level by attending a bilingual school? In my experience, you cannot, unless you a native parent at home and travel regularly to a country where the foreign language is spoken (for example, going on vacation in the US every year with your US parent(s)). You can speak great English/Spanish/German, but there would be still things that give you away as a non-native (maybe not in the first three sentences you utter, but you’ll get there, eventually). Yet, you could reach native proficiency if you moved abroad and you are young enough. High quality bilingual schools can help you reach a level where you can easily make business in the foreign language, though.But this doesn't mean you could pass for a native or get that level of comfort you have in your native language.

Are foreign teachers at a native-level? Not at all. I have met quite a number of Argentinian teachers of foreign languages and my observations are varied. Some spoke excellently the foreign language, correct from a grammatical stand point, with a fake accent (correct by the book, but no native is ‘that’ perfect), and some slipped into Spanish sentence structure; others still sound like an Argentinian speaking a foreign language. Of course, those who have lived or studied abroad have a big advantage.

Also, you need to have an eye for these things to spot them. I am not pretending that the layman agrees with what I said. However, if among you there is a language teacher or a translator, or a professional writer, they will understand what I mean. In my experience, I have observed that here in Argentina translators have a better command of the foreign language than teachers.


What is the personal comfort level?
It is a whole different thing what one’s feel comfortable with - the personal comfort threshold. For someone, it is being able to speak flawlessly in the foreign language even under stressful situations or when drunk, being able to make jokes in the foreign languages, or to dream in the foreign language, or to get moved by a foreign song or book the same way they would with something in their native language. For others is being able to go to a doctor appointment, understand what they are being said and being able to make their point and get the message across. Where you set the bar is very subjective.

I have seen people with limited language skills enjoy happily their flawed second language. These are usually people who spent a few years abroad as children. They have the spontaneity of a native speaker, but the grammar/vocabulary of a 5 years old, and unless they cultivate their second language, they are stuck there indefinitely.

I have seen English native speakers living here define themselves ‘fluent’ or ‘bilingual’ in Spanish, even claiming that the only thing that gives them away as foreigner is their accent… yet, they cannot put two sentences in Spanish without making basic mistakes like gender of nouns, understanding when a preposition is needed, etc. I would place them at B1, but they feel fluent and/or bilingual, nonetheless. They look ridiculous, but what do I care?

I am married to an Argentine and I ask him to correct my Spanish when I am using it for business purpose. While I could certainly manage myself my business relationships in Spanish, he always catches something… a plural/singular, the wrong register for that context, etc. He naturally ‘hears’ those things, while I have to carefully reason around them to get them straight.

I have always thought that had I attended bilingual schools in my childhood, I would be truly bilingual. Yet, since I came to Argentina and has the chance to speak to people who attended bilingual schools, I realized this is not true. They still sound foreigners, and they still do mistakes, and they don’t feel the second language as ‘their’ language like Spanish.
I had an interview in a foreign language university faculty and I was explained that people who attended a bilingual school have a B1-B2 level when they enroll at the university, so part of the syllabus is bringing them to C2. WHAT?! Ten childhood years in a bilingual school and they do the same as an adult studying the language for 3 years?! I was flabbergasted!

Native is not perfect, either.
Neither being ‘native’ is the golden standard of competency. There are uneducated native speakers, and educated native speakers still making plenty of mistakes.

Expressing yourself correctly doesn't happen by chance
I started studying Spanish about two years after I moved here because I could make myself understood, but I was limited in my active production because I had doubts. And when I asked to every day people, they simply said 'it is not important, I can understand what you mean anyway'. But that was not good enough for me. I have a higher command of my native language, and I wanted the same range of expression in Spanish. I wasn’t happy with a ‘I-get-by’ Spanish, I wanted to be able to make hypothesis, do complex reasoning, express exactly what I want without having to resort to different structures or workarounds etc.

Therefore, I started studying Spanish grammar meticulously, and this helped me immensely to be able to have an array of linguistic structures and tools. I also realized that Argentinian Spanish is just a shade of Spanish, and some expressions/structures are unheard of here, while are common elsewhere (I am not talking about vocabulary). Start this before you get 'used' to your mistakes (fossilization)!

I have also read ‘Español para dummies’, a book that aims to fix the Spanish of native speakers, and caught many mistakes that natives do. Not all natives have an interest in grammar and most people are convinced they speak correctly solely because they are native. I found myself explaining Spanish grammar to native Spanish speakers. Of course, I convinced nobody because it came from a non-native speaker…

Like Tilda said, you need to set your priorities. I really wanted to being able to switch completely to Spanish since I am given the possibility to live in a Spanish-speaking country, but I realized this would come at a cost (for me, an adult) – losing my higher command of my native language. And since I have to professionally write in my native language, I cannot afford that.
Juggling between languages flawlessly is something only a few lucky ones can reach. The average person, who maybe uses several languages in their work life, can do fine with mistakes here and there. But if you are paid to write professionally, you really need flawless language skills.

That said, learning is a continuous process, for both native and non-native alike!
I agree with the suggestion to hire a private tutor for as long as it takes. Find somebody on the same tune as you. Change him/her when you are ready to raise the bar and they aren't following along.

 

[Rich One]

After age 18 very difficult and for an anglo speaker to become fluent like a native? never seen that yet? However Dustin Luke does quite well! Speakers of Phonetic Languages do better in Spanish... Like Germans ...

If you master the following you will be a long way

1. Mira Vos
2. Que se yo
3. Que Buena Onda
4. viste
5. la Puta que lo Pario

 

[Fiscal]

I speak 50-50 English/Spanish with my wife. I don't have any problems with grammar, even the subjunctive. I am much, much better at reading and writing. Watching Argentinian films and tv shows with Spanish subtitles, I can understand 90%-100% of what is said. The problem is verbal communication.

My co-workers all speak fluent English, often without any perceptible accent and so it has just naturally evolved to everyone speaking English with me. I have taken many hours of private one-on-one lessons but I've discovered speaking to Spanish teachers is a lot different from speaking with regular people who have no command of English, speak quickly/less clearly, and cannot understand my heavily-accented Spanish. Spanish professors have very clear accents, don't use slang, and modify their speech so the setting is artificial. One on one with a person who speaks no English is often very difficult for me beyond basic small talk or some very superficial discussion of politics or the economy. And in conversations among several Argentinians, I will just end up getting lost.

 

[camel]

What is fluency? What is proficiency? What is native-level? What is your comfort threshold?

...

For example, I am a C2 in both English and Spanish, and you can see where I stand ‘linguistically’ by reading this post. I am in no way native, nor I could pass for one. I have been studying English on a daily basis for the past 20 years, but I have never lived in an English-speaking country and I don’t have an English-speaking partner.

This is an awesome post, probably the best post on the subject I've read on this forum.

And I wish my Spanish was half as good as your English...which is better than most native English speakers'.

 

[Ana Raffo]

Any tips? I am perfectly fine making small talk with uber drivers, taxistas, waiters, etc... But what did you do to get to the point where you could speak with ease on a complex subject, like going into OSDE to deal with administrative stuff, speaking with co-workers in Spanish, etc...?

Any tips? I am perfectly fine making small talk with uber drivers, taxistas, waiters, etc... But what did you do to get to the point where you could speak with ease on a complex subject, like going into OSDE to deal with administrative stuff, speaking with co-workers in Spanish, etc...?

Hi there!
Learning a foreign language is like a puzzle. You get acquainted with parts of it as separate entities, and you start discovering the whole picture as you are able to link them together. It is a process, and it can be super painful or very fun depending on how hard or kind you are towards yourself while in the process. This sounds like new age bullshit but it's not. I've gone through that process twice in my life, first with Portuguese and then with English, and I see it all the time with my students. I teach English, Portuguese and Spanish, and in all cases I see that creating a trusting and encouraging relationship towards one’s ability to learn is what ultimately enables us to move forward without seeing each obstacle as a dead sentence.

On a more "technical" note, I don't think enough stress is ever put on learning phrases. Yes. Repeating entire phrases. Internalizing the phrases you hear in natives, exactly as they say them. They have a certain rhythm, they are used in specific ways, they connect by certain prepositions, etc. And in that, the listening aspect of learning is super important. It is funny how we as adults, when starting to learn a foreign language, expect to speak it right away, forgetting that when we learned our mother tongue we spent nearly two years without saying a word, just listening to everyone around us in absolute perplexity and focus. Now, do we allow ourselves to listen with that kind of intention? I don't think so. And it is most needed. I know that when we are battling at the counter with an OSDE clerk we need to deliver. So that's action time. And you do it the best you can. Now, preparing yourself for that situation with specific topic related phrases learned beforehand is definitely helpful. Also, those situations are much less frustrating if you have created a learning process instance in your life, with or without a teacher, where you can feed your Spanish with nice goodies while not under pressure, in a playful and investigating spirit. Towards this process, another thing that has helped me and my students a lot is to keep a journal in the language you're learning. Write thoughts, worries, supermarket lists, whatever comes to mind. It's a great way to feed your Spanish internal dialogue. And your fluency will very much depend on your ability to think directly in the foreign tongue without first going through your own. Creating a comfortable relationship to yourself in the foreign language is crucial for it to become less foreign to you every day. This is something that happens between you and yourself in the intimacy of your mind. For that, reading out loud also helps, as well as finding a Spanish narrator you like and imitating them! Also actors are a good resource for that. Falling in love with somebody's passion or personality and absorbing all you can from them. We’re monkeys! We learn by imitation. I recently introduced "100 días para enamorarse" to a Spanish student of mine (an Argentine TV show that’s just won the Martín Fierro award --a really fun and insightful show actually.) My student madly fell in love with Antonia (one of the main characters.) Now she goes around speaking like her and knows entire phrases that Antonia says. And little by little she's started to use them in her everyday life. Those are the gems you feed your Spanish with. They are gems because they are yours, they've got your emotions linked to them, your passion, whatever it is that you liked is there, and that is what strengthens your connection with the language, till one day you’ll hear yourself speak as if somebody else was speaking, and know that a new you was born, never to disappear.

 

[TWB103]

Hi there!
Learning a foreign language is like a puzzle. You get acquainted with parts of it as separate entities, and you start discovering the whole picture as you are able to link them together. It is a process, and it can be super painful or very fun depending on how hard or kind you are towards yourself while in the process. This sounds like new age bullshit but it's not. I've gone through that process twice in my life, first with Portuguese and then with English, and I see it all the time with my students. I teach English, Portuguese and Spanish, and in all cases I see that creating a trusting and encouraging relationship towards one’s ability to learn is what ultimately enables us to move forward without seeing each obstacle as a dead sentence.

On a more "technical" note, I don't think enough stress is ever put on learning phrases. Yes. Repeating entire phrases. Internalizing the phrases you hear in natives, exactly as they say them. They have a certain rhythm, they are used in specific ways, they connect by certain prepositions, etc. And in that, the listening aspect of learning is super important. It is funny how we as adults, when starting to learn a foreign language, expect to speak it right away, forgetting that when we learned our mother tongue we spent nearly two years without saying a word, just listening to everyone around us in absolute perplexity and focus. Now, do we allow ourselves to listen with that kind of intention? I don't think so. And it is most needed. I know that when we are battling at the counter with an OSDE clerk we need to deliver. So that's action time. And you do it the best you can. Now, preparing yourself for that situation with specific topic related phrases learned beforehand is definitely helpful. Also, those situations are much less frustrating if you have created a learning process instance in your life, with or without a teacher, where you can feed your Spanish with nice goodies while not under pressure, in a playful and investigating spirit. Towards this process, another thing that has helped me and my students a lot is to keep a journal in the language you're learning. Write thoughts, worries, supermarket lists, whatever comes to mind. It's a great way to feed your Spanish internal dialogue. And your fluency will very much depend on your ability to think directly in the foreign tongue without first going through your own. Creating a comfortable relationship to yourself in the foreign language is crucial for it to become less foreign to you every day. This is something that happens between you and yourself in the intimacy of your mind. For that, reading out loud also helps, as well as finding a Spanish narrator you like and imitating them! Also actors are a good resource for that. Falling in love with somebody's passion or personality and absorbing all you can from them. We’re monkeys! We learn by imitation. I recently introduced "100 días para enamorarse" to a Spanish student of mine (an Argentine TV show that’s just won the Martín Fierro award --a really fun and insightful show actually.) My student madly fell in love with Antonia (one of the main characters.) Now she goes around speaking like her and knows entire phrases that Antonia says. And little by little she's started to use them in her everyday life. Those are the gems you feed your Spanish with. They are gems because they are yours, they've got your emotions linked to them, your passion, whatever it is that you liked is there, and that is what strengthens your connection with the language, till one day you’ll hear yourself speak as if somebody else was speaking, and know that a new you was born, never to disappear.

Great points. Its worth remembering that learning spanish or any foreign language has no end just as we never stop learning new words and phrases in our native language. Languages evolve as do we personally. I'm sure I speak (in my native tongue) quite differently to how I spoke 20 years ago.

 

[Somewhereinba]

Speaking of spanish. Does anyone know the correct product name for a paint primer and sealant? The lower parts of my interior walls have paint cracking/peeling due to moisture and humidity. I want to clean off the paint and apply a proper sealer/primer to prevent it peeling again. SO far I have been unable to find anything here that would do the job. The walls are masonry brick with concrete sealant over the top.

 

[camel]

Speaking of spanish. Does anyone know the correct product name for a paint primer and sealant? The lower parts of my interior walls have paint cracking/peeling due to moisture and humidity. I want to clean off the paint and apply a proper sealer/primer to prevent it peeling again. SO far I have been unable to find anything here that would do the job. The walls are masonry brick with concrete sealant over the top.

Here's a trick for words like these, when Google Translate doesn't help: Try mercadolibre, and just enter the english word. I entered "paint sealant" and the results show that "sellador" is probably sealant. I'm not sure about primer... it may just be "prímer" with a spanish pronunciation.

 

[Somewhereinba]

Yes I found Fijador Sellador but not sure if its actually a primer or sealant... Seems like it is a cheap way to paint walls before applying the expensive paint but not sure...