Is Obama the NEW Capone (Chicago gangster) of the USA?

[jp]

Watch the videos. Read the articles. Do research on the web. Then draw your own conclusions. But don't discount somebody else's opinion simply because it doesn't mesh with your own.

This is just the thing. I've spent my life doing "research". Reading, studying, keeping informed. The benefit of this approach is that when someone posts up a link to a video or article which has no qualified references, little substance and is basically a string of assumptions, speculation and a few grandiose statements from people with zero credibility - you can recognise it for what it is.

The thing that annoys me about the conspiracy / truther movement isn't their difference of opinion - I'm all for a world where we disagree on things. The thing that annoys me is that people watch a couple of videos and do some "web research" then come to the conclusion that the world is full of gullible morons, because they don't hold the word of david icke and alex jones as gospel.

I'm not really waiting for a moment of epiphany when I suddenly realise that politicians don't always tell the truth, and that powerful interests protect their interests. You might as well shock me with the truth that coca cola doesn't really care about me "living life to the full" and when it comes down to it, Ronald Macdonald isn't safeguarding my health.

Hope this doesn't come across as offensive, you come across as a respectful guy and I don't mean to be rude. I just get fed up of people telling me I need to "wake up" and "do more research" so that I can come to the same conclusions as them.

 

[redrum]

This is just the thing. I've spent my life doing "research". Reading, studying, keeping informed. The benefit of this approach is that when someone posts up a link to a video or article which has no qualified references, little substance and is basically a string of assumptions, speculation and a few grandiose statements from people with zero credibility - you can recognise it for what it is.

The thing that annoys me about the conspiracy / truther movement isn't their difference of opinion - I'm all for a world where we disagree on things. The thing that annoys me is that people watch a couple of videos and do some "web research" then come to the conclusion that the world is full of gullible morons, because they don't hold the word of david icke and alex jones as gospel.

I'm not really waiting for a moment of epiphany when I suddenly realise that politicians don't always tell the truth, and that powerful interests protect their interests. You might as well shock me with the truth that coca cola doesn't really care about me "living life to the full" and when it comes down to it, Ronald Macdonald isn't safeguarding my health.

Hope this doesn't come across as offensive, you come across as a respectful guy and I don't mean to be rude. I just get fed up of people telling me I need to "wake up" and "do more research" so that I can come to the same conclusions as them.

JP-

no offense taken here. Not sure who you've been speaking to in the past. i revert to my previous post. Watch the videos first - then make your comments/judgments. Again - you are casting judgment BEFORE examining the material. It's easy to discount without first doing a thorough review of the "opposing view". It's classic mind conditioning/denial. The mind puts up a slide/block that doesn't even allow for the possibility that things are much worse than even possibly imagined. Anyone else holding such beliefs are demonized or discounted by labeling them as "conspiracy theorists", "racists", "anti-semites", "white supremacists"...etc. Suspend your bias for as long as you can. Change your paradigm.

Also - in terms of you spending a life of doing "research". I would question the sources of your research and how you have been "keeping informed". Again, if you actually took the time to review the info, you will be quite surprised at how referenced and credible the sources are. Most of the info is/has been reported in the mainstream press, just distorted or twisted into propaganda that advances the agenda of the elite. However, again, you are dismissing it before even giving it a chance.

I believe that a person will know truth when they see it. It sort of just clicks or makes sense on an inner level. Call it the "epiphany" you mentioned. Truth however, real truth, will never simply be "presented" to us. We have to seek it out.

Why are you going to the extreme? Nobody is saying you need to hold the word of Icke or Jones as gospel, I certainly don't. Just start with one video that is completely documented as history. You can easily google and verify ALL the topics mentioned. Watch The Money Masters first as it is probably the least "conspiracy theorist" documentary that I know of, that educates us on how/why the federal reserve is a private bank formed by a banking cartel.

The Money Masters - How International Bankers Gained Control of America
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...19560256183936

 

[Matt84]

Redrum,

I've watched those videos, lurked around "prisonplanet", and I've got the feeling that many if not every user reading this thread is somewhat familiarized with "the truth". Now, Quid Pro Quo:

Inspect this material. It's short, concise and free:
"Here Be Dragons, An Introduction to Critical Thinking"

You will do yourself a huge favor if you paid close attention to the part that debunks conspiracy theories and the like. I am not being ironic, once you realize it you will definitely feel a lot better.

 

[redrum]

Redrum,

I've watched those videos, lurked around "prisonplanet", and I've got the feeling that many if not every user reading this thread is somewhat familiarized with "the truth". Now, Quid Pro Quo:

Inspect this material. It's short, concise and free:
"Here Be Dragons, An Introduction to Critical Thinking"

You will do yourself a huge favor if you paid close attention to the part that debunks conspiracy theories and the like. I am not being ironic, once you realize it you will definitely feel a lot better.

matt thx for the link. yes i've actually seen that video. And I am for the most part in agreement with it. There's no question that the world is full of pseudo/junk science, unverified claims, outlandish urban myths...etc. we can sit here and drum up all kinds of impossible to believe scenarios. That doesn't mean that we stop looking for truth or questioning what government tells us.

i think one could easily go tit for tat for as long as one wanted and give reasons for/against certain beliefs. However, i do not believe that most on this thread are familiarized with "the truth" as you say. And I also don't believe in applying 100% of what the video says to all things. Like any piece of information, one must take/extract what seems most relevant no? Again, it's an all too easy method of simply dismissing what a person has to say instead of analyzing WHAT they are saying.

I think we're getting off track here. You mentioned that you had seen The Money Masters. What are your thoughts? Do you dismiss its main premise as conspiracy theory?

Here's an interesting book by G. Edward Griffin, who explains in detail how the federal reserve was formed.

http://www.amazon.com/Creature-Jekyll-Island-Federal-Reserve/dp/B001V7BRFS/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_2

 

[Matt84]

matt thx for the link. yes i've actually seen that video. And I am for the most part in agreement with it. There's no question that the world is full of pseudo/junk science, unverified claims, outlandish urban myths...etc. we can sit here and drum up all kinds of impossible to believe scenarios. That doesn't mean that we stop looking for truth or questioning what government tells us.

i think one could easily go tit for tat for as long as one wanted and give reasons for/against certain beliefs. However, i do not believe that most on this thread are familiarized with "the truth" as you say. And I also don't believe in applying 100% of what the video says to all things. Like any piece of information, one must take/extract what seems most relevant no? Again, it's an all too easy method of simply dismissing what a person has to say instead of analyzing WHAT they are saying.

I think we're getting off track here. You mentioned that you had seen The Money Masters. What are your thoughts? Do you dismiss its main premise as conspiracy theory?

Here's an interesting book by G. Edward Griffin, who explains in detail how the federal reserve was formed.

http://www.amazon.com/Creature-Jekyll-Island-Federal-Reserve/dp/B001V7BRFS/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_2

Alright.

Regarding Here be Dragons, what he does is explain the same epistemological failure (the misintegration of concepts) applied to different yet random scenarios. Obviously no one will believe every superstition, everyone thinks his superstition/belief/truth/story is exceptional. The real psychological effort is to realize that just as some people believe they speak in tongues, and others that chinese bells will cure their tumor, you too have to snap out of your own particular belief - provided you want to lead a healtheir, happier, freer life.

I couldn't put it better and classier than JP did, but:

Yes, everybody knows politicians lie in order to get ellected. When a politician doesn't lie, i.e. Kucinich or Ron Paul, he fails. What a wonderful world would it be if Kucinich and Paul (VP) runned together and won a presidential ellection. I'd also like to have a cake and eat it at the same time. "la chancha y los $20"

However what you might not know is that those pictures of "FEMA concentration camps in Alaska", are actualy satellite photos of Concentration camps for families of "political prisoners" in the inaccesible province of North-Eastern North Korea, courtesy of the US Armed Forces. And if you don't believe the gov, then youtube the lachrimogenic testimonials of North Korean refugees in Manchuria.

Now when you talk about "things being worse than we imagine" you are unavoidbly implying that there is a semi-human elite with superpowers who are bend in Global Control instead of enjoying life. If you have a slight understandment of Capitalism - the force that over the generations turned dirty farmers and tailors into bankers member of a closed elite - then you can recognize spontaneous order in the general population, as well as the impotence of government to control every detail of our lives.

Let's talk about those pesky piesces of paper that could be exchanged for gold in the time of my grandparents:

It's never been a secret that the fed is a public-private legal monopoly. It's still a subject of debate whether this was the direct cause of the Great Depression, but it's likely. Alan Greenspan and Ayn Rand both wrote about the subject from the 50s on, not as uncovering a secret, but as accusing the fiat system of dangerous and inmoral respectively.

And as not-perfect as that system might be, it has not prevented guys like genius Bill Gates, immoral Larry Flint, or illiterate Ray C Krok to create huge corporations that ellevated the standard of living, labor opportunities and even freedom, for the entire World.

So alas, what are you so scared about?

The moment we are too scared of the consequences to speak our minds, then, and only then, we should call the alarm of Totalitarianism. For example, the fear in Europe of pointing out that Muhammed was a man of questionable virtue, or in California that Environmentalism might be mixture of Science and Religion as dangerous as Creationism.

But we can still say that, and all indications say that we'll be able to continue doing so. Even in actual barbaria (places with intra/ethernet not internet, like Iran or Saudi Arabia) people increasingly find ways to speak or type at least their minds without fear of persecution.

So the Fed is a legal monopoly? Yes, but until gold itself is made illegal (as it used to be in PRChina until a couple of years ago) then their power isn't unstoppable. In fact there's nothing that prohibits people from printing their own currencies, there are evidences of such failures that you can google, but that doesn't mean some day it might become a succesful reality where private currencies compete within a country and internationally. In such a scenario one would be free to trade in more solid metal-backed currencies or more volatile ones. Oh wait, that's Forex.

So, what is the all-ecompassing all-powerful elite you're talking about?
Might it be a psychological extrapolation that fills the void God used to occupy for our last 80 generations?

 

[redrum]

Alright.

Regarding Here be Dragons, what he does is explain the same epistemological failure (the misintegration of concepts) applied to different yet random scenarios. Obviously no one will believe every superstition, everyone thinks his superstition/belief/truth/story is exceptional. The real psychological effort is to realize that just as some people believe they speak in tongues, and others that chinese bells will cure their tumor, you too have to snap out of your own particular belief - provided you want to lead a healtheir, happier, freer life.

I couldn't put it better and classier than JP did, but:

Yes, everybody knows politicians lie in order to get ellected. When a politician doesn't lie, i.e. Kucinich or Ron Paul, he fails. What a wonderful world would it be if Kucinich and Paul (VP) runned together and won a presidential ellection. I'd also like to have a cake and eat it at the same time. "la chancha y los $20"

However what you might not know is that those pictures of "FEMA concentration camps in Alaska", are actualy satellite photos of Concentration camps for families of "political prisoners" in the inaccesible province of North-Eastern North Korea, courtesy of the US Armed Forces. And if you don't believe the gov, then youtube the lachrimogenic testimonials of North Korean refugees in Manchuria.

Now when you talk about "things being worse than we imagine" you are unavoidbly implying that there is a semi-human elite with superpowers who are bend in Global Control instead of enjoying life. If you have a slight understandment of Capitalism - the force that over the generations turned dirty farmers and tailors into bankers member of a closed elite - then you can recognize spontaneous order in the general population, as well as the impotence of government to control every detail of our lives.

Let's talk about those pesky piesces of paper that could be exchanged for gold in the time of my grandparents:

It's never been a secret that the fed is a public-private legal monopoly. It's still a subject of debate whether this was the direct cause of the Great Depression, but it's likely. Alan Greenspan and Ayn Rand both wrote about the subject from the 50s on, not as uncovering a secret, but as accusing the fiat system of dangerous and inmoral respectively.

And as not-perfect as that system might be, it has not prevented guys like genius Bill Gates, immoral Larry Flint, or illiterate Ray C Krok to create huge corporations that ellevated the standard of living, labor opportunities and even freedom, for the entire World.

So alas, what are you so scared about?

The moment we are too scared of the consequences to speak our minds, then, and only then, we should call the alarm of Totalitarianism. For example, the fear in Europe of pointing out that Muhammed was a man of questionable virtue, or in California that Environmentalism might be mixture of Science and Religion as dangerous as Creationism.

But we can still say that, and all indications say that we'll be able to continue doing so. Even in actual barbaria (places with intra/ethernet not internet, like Iran or Saudi Arabia) people increasingly find ways to speak or type at least their minds without fear of persecution.

So the Fed is a legal monopoly? Yes, but until gold itself is made illegal (as it used to be in PRChina until a couple of years ago) then their power isn't unstoppable. In fact there's nothing that prohibits people from printing their own currencies, there are evidences of such failures that you can google, but that doesn't mean some day it might become a succesful reality where private currencies compete within a country and internationally. In such a scenario one would be free to trade in more solid metal-backed currencies or more volatile ones. Oh wait, that's Forex.

So, what is the all-ecompassing all-powerful elite you're talking about?
Might it be a psychological extrapolation that fills the void God used to occupy for our last 80 generations?

matt - wow i wasn't expecting that response....you seem to be all sover the board there hehe.

i think we are in general agreement however please try to keep your personal judgments of me out of your comments. i don't know you personally and you don't know me so there's no possible way for you to postulate what i should/need to think/do in order to live a "healthier, happier, freer life", that i am "scared" of something or that i "will definitely feel a lot better". let's stick to the topics please.

you say that the fed is "a legal monopoly". well, that right there is one of the "truths" that the average american has no idea about. if they did, there would be a revolution in the streets. it's one of the truths that we all need to be educated about and it seems we are in agreement that it is not a conspiracy theory.

the way you phrase it however, so matter of fact, so nonchalant, is a bit disturbing because it's almost as if you have accepted or rationalized it somehow.

i am not against capitalism, despite the unfair demonization/characterization that it is receiving right now. capitalism did not put us in our current position.

but why should we accept the fact that a banking cartel owns/controls our monetary system and may have been the root cause not only of the great dreprssion but of our current crisis as well.

why should we accept that we pay taxes in order to supply the government revenue, which is then loaned back to us at interest?

again i ask you, have you seen the video The Money Masters and what are your thoughts?

 

[perry]

Unfortunately many people do not want to know or accept any other ideas than the ones promoted to them by mainstream media. They seem to me that they do not want to upset the apple cart of their existence and are scared to venture into the unknown.

I was taught from a young age to be cynical and to question actions and not listen to fancy words from a skillful orator. For me clearly the current administration in the USA is no better than any others and is shaping up to be more decisive than any before.

I find people who attack others by calling them loonies or conspiracy theorists because they happen to have a different opinion from the mainstream media is a sad indictment of them as people.
It seems that it is a form of debasing others and stifling real debate.

 

[Matt84]

Well P, I kinda believe that youtube has become as mainstream as faux news and about as believable.

Redrum,

I deeply apologize if I made it sound like I was trying to help you personally. I was too ashamed to admit that I experienced a paranoid black helicopter period back in 2001/2002 (who knows why?!) and travelled to Tierra Del Fuego, and I felt a lot happier, healthier and yes, intellectually freer, when I gradually snapped out of it. I thought I could help you, forgetting my favorite quote of H D Thoreau; guess which one.

* I've learnt about the Fed, the Bank of England and the lost value of the Gold Standard, through Objectivist Philosophy (Ayn Rand, etc), and Austrian economics (von Mises, George Reisman). Both schools of thought are highly recommendable reading, but not omniscient. I am far from an expert in monetary policy but I believe we'd be better off with privately issued currencies, but as I've pointed out before, we already have those, they are just very very very unsuccesful.
If you want paper money backed on metal, I believe the CHF is 40% gold.

*Even Nationalists think a World Government is unlikely. The U.N. can't even stop a famine in Africa, or a rogue state in Korea; how is it going to enslave us all, and for what purpose? Remember 100 years ago? Esperanto was the unstoppable global language that was going to erradicate all other tongues.

*I believe we are on a path towards more economic and political freedom on the mid and long term. If we take a look back, to before the Industrial Revolution, we'd only find Nobility, Clergy, and Serfs. It's not the case anymore, and decade by decade, probably exponentially, there's more lifestyle diversity; soon we'll reach the point of actual individuality. I'm not a Cynic, nor a Nihilist. I am Skeptik but I do have principles. I just began puting things in historical perspective.

*I honestly believe that the XX century has left everyone but muslims and baptists with a deep spiritual void. I believe many pseudo-sciences and discplines are willingly or unwillingly filling that void. I am certaing that philosophies such as Objectivism, or pseudo-sciences such as Environmentalism (not Ecology, that IS hard science!) and even Survivalism are perfect candidates to fill that void.

*I found the movie The Money Masters a double-edge sword. While it does explain many certain and indeed interesting historical facts; from the beggining it sticks to using that term "money-movers" which with all due respect to the founding fathers, it sounds plainly antisemitic - and ungrateful, for wasn't it for banking, America would not have been discovered (everybody would have been too busy plowing potatoe-less fields).

*In the movie, the host says the answer is to keep the Central Banks but make them public, auditable, and I believe state-owned? In contrast what I believe is that Central Banks should be out-evolved by smaller private financial services based on real assets, and maybe international currency trade as well. Not the other way around.

*Finally, I believe this parabole respresents my position: When the Godfearing were asked to pay thites in a kosher currency, and Jesus ousted the priests (or the like) out of the Temple; what I would have done is just tell the priests to accept Roman currency, or to allow me to worship YHV' privately. If you think about it, the whole problem was that Roman Imperial citizens, hebrews like some of my forefather in this case, were forced to comply with theocracy.

*Most religions, specially Islam, consider charging compound interest, or even plain interest, a sin. So do most religions consider free-thinking a sin (it's the first commandment!). I believe people who are allowed to think freely can accept or reject an interest-loaded loan dependending on their own self interest (another sin).

Please consider this a debate and by no means a discussion. After all, we are on the same side.