Is the Milei "Transformation" Failing Already?

[Jagman]

There are certain social projects or constructions which serve the public and private sector but are not actually economically viable. This where Mieli is wrong with his dogmatic and extreme views, he needs to be more pragmatic and accept you can't apply the same political beliefs across the board.

Take the UK railways as the perfect example of this, originally it was national and paid for by the government purse. Over the years its gone backwards and forwards after been privatised. The private sector hasn't been able to make it profitable as running such a system and service is very costly. Currently the UK railways are nationalised again which happened several years ago. Tickets are still very expensive despite it been government hands, tickets were even more under the private sector whom still couldn't profit from it.

If we apply Milei logic, he'd just do away with it. However its a fantastic service and despite the losses it serves the country well, every single small town and big city is connected by the railways. Reduces congestion on the roads and gets people to and from work all over the country. So its worth paying for despite the fact is loses money, it still benefits the country. I think the same can be applied to aerolineas argentinas in particular the domestic service it provides, it connects the country together and its a great service worth keeping under the national goverement. Sure they should tighten the purse strings and make sure nobody is shaving anything off the top.
UK has ruthless privatisation over the last decade and it has not served the country well.

As for is the Milei project failing?I say certainly yes. Considering business activity is already down 30% from this time last year, prices going up uncontrollably. Sure he slowed inflation every so slightly but if you slow down the economy thats always going to happen. You can look at the "Shock therapy" measures applied in Russia in the 90s proved to be an absolute disaster. Milei is doing nothing new and more than likely we'll see similar results here. Increase in corruption, increase in cost of living, increase in poverty and a large gap between those with and those without. Thats shock therapy just like other extremes such as communism it doesn't work never has. A healthy political system has balance, Argentina is just bouncing from one extreme to another here.

 

[Reply Guy]

Agree about the railways. I do think if the train system serves the country and provides a net benefit it's ok if it losses some money. There is graft and corruption in every country, but the problem is worse in Argentina than Western Europe. Here in Argentina when these companies are under state hands the administrators not only do a poor job managing it, but they also pilfer off funds.

Is the Milei project failing? You can't measure the success or failure of changes in government policies within 2.5 months. Anyone who says the project is already failing is someone who doesn't like Milei and his ideas, and those who say he's a success are also partisans.

We can come back to this thread in 2 or 3 years and be able to give a better answer to that question.

 

[FrankPintor]

There are certain social projects or constructions which serve the public and private sector but are not actually economically viable. This where Mieli is wrong with his dogmatic and extreme views, he needs to be more pragmatic and accept you can't apply the same political beliefs across the board.

Take the UK railways as the perfect example of this, originally it was national and paid for by the government purse. Over the years its gone backwards and forwards after been privatised. The private sector hasn't been able to make it profitable as running such a system and service is very costly. Currently the UK railways are nationalised again which happened several years ago. Tickets are still very expensive despite it been government hands, tickets were even more under the private sector whom still couldn't profit from it.

If we apply Milei logic, he'd just do away with it. However its a fantastic service and despite the losses it serves the country well, every single small town and big city is connected by the railways. Reduces congestion on the roads and gets people to and from work all over the country. So its worth paying for despite the fact is loses money, it still benefits the country. I think the same can be applied to aerolineas argentinas in particular the domestic service it provides, it connects the country together and its a great service worth keeping under the national goverement. Sure they should tighten the purse strings and make sure nobody is shaving anything off the top.
UK has ruthless privatisation over the last decade and it has not served the country well.

As for is the Milei project failing?I say certainly yes. Considering business activity is already down 30% from this time last year, prices going up uncontrollably. Sure he slowed inflation every so slightly but if you slow down the economy thats always going to happen. You can look at the "Shock therapy" measures applied in Russia in the 90s proved to be an absolute disaster. Milei is doing nothing new and more than likely we'll see similar results here. Increase in corruption, increase in cost of living, increase in poverty and a large gap between those with and those without. Thats shock therapy just like other extremes such as communism it doesn't work never has. A healthy political system has balance, Argentina is just bouncing from one extreme to another here.

Public transport is an interesting topic, and one that libertarians, with their "home on the range" or "alone on the pampas" mentality will never get. It's not just that public transport is a public good, with multiple benefits as you mention, but, as real economists (not just the faux one we got as toddler-president) have evaluated, you can usefully go further and make the services free at the point of use. Recover the costs via taxes or whatever, and dump the expensive payments systems.

 

[FrankPintor]

Agree about the railways. I do think if the train system serves the country and provides a net benefit it's ok if it losses some money. There is graft and corruption in every country, but the problem is worse in Argentina than Western Europe. Here in Argentina when these companies are under state hands the administrators not only do a poor job managing it, but they also pilfer off funds.

Is the Milei project failing? You can't measure the success or failure of changes in government policies within 2.5 months. Anyone who says the project is already failing is someone who doesn't like Milei and his ideas, and those who say he's a success are also partisans.

We can come back to this thread in 2 or 3 years and be able to give a better answer to that question.

You don't think that the predilections of our priapic toddler-president (voyages of self-discovery with his nepotistic clique, picking fights with singers - did Lali Esposito turn down a tantric sex session? -, foreign presidents, governors, people with Down's syndrome, liking porn stars... the list goes on while a country waits to be governed), give a hint at the way this will end? I couldn't find a helicopter icon, sorry.

There are many useful things that can be done to make Argentina better, and, to be fair, some measures are being taken. Draining the slush funds is excellent. But having our priapic toddler-president 5+ hours per night on "X" isn't what's needed. I miss Macri, he only spent his nights watching Netflix.

 

[Jagman]

Agree about the railways. I do think if the train system serves the country and provides a net benefit it's ok if it losses some money. There is graft and corruption in every country, but the problem is worse in Argentina than Western Europe. Here in Argentina when these companies are under state hands the administrators not only do a poor job managing it, but they also pilfer off funds.

Is the Milei project failing? You can't measure the success or failure of changes in government policies within 2.5 months. Anyone who says the project is already failing is someone who doesn't like Milei and his ideas, and those who say he's a success are also partisans.

We can come back to this thread in 2 or 3 years and be able to give a better answer to that question.

I see your point and you give a fair defence. I will retort with the following:

Firstly if the administrators are doing bad practise and pilfering off funds, this can be managed and rectified. Finding the right people of good characterr and more careful book keeping. This can be managed and corrected. Its much easier to do this , than give it to the private sector who will esstenially milk the company and public dry as they have a monopoly when owning such a service. Plus they are only interested in profit margin and buying such a sizeable service company would require a foreign corporate power with zero interest in Argentina's wellbeing.

Second, I can measure it after two months, simply by looking back into history. After two months its already going the way Russia went in the 90s, so logically given that they applied similar measures , we'll get similar results. Ultimately some major powers, more than likely corporations, hedge funds or big business funded the the Milei campaign and no doubt they will be the ones to reap the rewards not Argentina nor its people.

On a separate note, I was no fan of the previous regime, but Argentina must do better than this. Classic case of the suggested solution (Milei) is worse than the problem.

 

[sergio]

There are certain social projects or constructions which serve the public and private sector but are not actually economically viable. This where Mieli is wrong with his dogmatic and extreme views, he needs to be more pragmatic and accept you can't apply the same political beliefs across the board.

Take the UK railways as the perfect example of this, originally it was national and paid for by the government purse. Over the years its gone backwards and forwards after been privatised. The private sector hasn't been able to make it profitable as running such a system and service is very costly. Currently the UK railways are nationalised again which happened several years ago. Tickets are still very expensive despite it been government hands, tickets were even more under the private sector whom still couldn't profit from it.

If we apply Milei logic, he'd just do away with it. However its a fantastic service and despite the losses it serves the country well, every single small town and big city is connected by the railways. Reduces congestion on the roads and gets people to and from work all over the country. So its worth paying for despite the fact is loses money, it still benefits the country. I think the same can be applied to aerolineas argentinas in particular the domestic service it provides, it connects the country together and its a great service worth keeping under the national goverement. Sure they should tighten the purse strings and make sure nobody is shaving anything off the top.
UK has ruthless privatisation over the last decade and it has not served the country well.

As for is the Milei project failing?I say certainly yes. Considering business activity is already down 30% from this time last year, prices going up uncontrollably. Sure he slowed inflation every so slightly but if you slow down the economy thats always going to happen. You can look at the "Shock therapy" measures applied in Russia in the 90s proved to be an absolute disaster. Milei is doing nothing new and more than likely we'll see similar results here. Increase in corruption, increase in cost of living, increase in poverty and a large gap between those with and those without. Thats shock therapy just like other extremes such as communism it doesn't work never has. A healthy political system has balance, Argentina is just bouncing from one extreme to another here.

Isn't part of the British rail system now state run but not all? It's actually not true that every town has rail service. I had to go by car to Wells (Somerset). There was no train. Fares are high if you go at the last minute but if you book in advance they can be inexpensive. As for Argentina (or just about anywhere else in the world), passenger trains need some subsidy but they yield returns in a number of ways by stimulating tourism, business and reducing road traffic. The problem is efficiency and cutting out a lot of the corruption.

 

[Musicman]

How Norway (who kept State Control) got rich from Oil, but the UK (Free market Libertariansim) didn’t.​

How Norway got rich from Oil, but the UK didn't - Economics Help

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24e9F30tK1Q Norway and UK are neighbours, separated only by the North Sea, with its rich mine of oil and gas reserves, but whilst Norway has used its good fortune to become the richest country in the world. The UK’s oil bonanza was largely squandered, at the very...

www.economicshelp.org

Interesting article given the huge potential of oil and gas in Argentina.

Norway and UK are neighbours, separated only by the North Sea, with its rich mine of oil and gas reserves, but whilst Norway has used its good fortune to become the richest country in the world. The UK’s oil bonanza was largely squandered, at the very least, the UK did little to invest proceeds. Norway invested the proceeds of oil in a sovereign wealth fund, which stands at $1.4 trillion, the biggest in the world.
A reference for Argentina where the UK Oil and Gas Industry in the North Sea was privatized by Margaret Thatcher and underperformed greatly versus the Norwegian model that was much more successful keeping state control. Overall, Norway's success in managing its oil and gas industry compared to the UK was attributed to its strategic approach to resource management, state ownership and control, fiscal discipline, support for domestic industries, and collaborative governance practices. These factors enabled Norway to harness its petroleum wealth effectively for the benefit of its citizens while maintaining a stable and diversified economy. Social Democracy prevailing over right wing free market libertarianism for the benefit of all the people in the country. Privatizing YPF would be a huge error.

 

[Jagman]

Isn't part of the British rail system now state run but not all? It's actually not true that every town has rail service. I had to go by car to Wells (Somerset). There was no train. Fares are high if you go at the last minute but if you book in advance they can be inexpensive. As for Argentina (or just about anywhere else in the world), passenger trains need some subsidy but they yield returns in a number of ways by stimulating tourism, business and reducing road traffic. The problem is efficiency and cutting out a lot of the corruption.

It's true what you say that now every single town and city are connected, they used to be. Including goods and factory lines. The system is part of the Beeching cuts, feel free to google beeching cuts, that also proved to be disastrous. Now most goods in the UK go by road rather than rail, the system was far bigger prior to those cuts, a real lack of government foresight.

Also it hasn't be viable for the private sector if not they would renew their contracts.

 

[Jagman]

How Norway (who kept State Control) got rich from Oil, but the UK (Free market Libertariansim) didn’t.​

How Norway got rich from Oil, but the UK didn't - Economics Help

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24e9F30tK1Q Norway and UK are neighbours, separated only by the North Sea, with its rich mine of oil and gas reserves, but whilst Norway has used its good fortune to become the richest country in the world. The UK’s oil bonanza was largely squandered, at the very...

www.economicshelp.org

Interesting article given the huge potential of oil and gas in Argentina.

Norway and UK are neighbours, separated only by the North Sea, with its rich mine of oil and gas reserves, but whilst Norway has used its good fortune to become the richest country in the world. The UK’s oil bonanza was largely squandered, at the very least, the UK did little to invest proceeds. Norway invested the proceeds of oil in a sovereign wealth fund, which stands at $1.4 trillion, the biggest in the world.
A reference for Argentina where the UK Oil and Gas Industry in the North Sea was privatized by Margaret Thatcher and underperformed greatly versus the Norwegian model that was much more successful keeping state control. Overall, Norway's success in managing its oil and gas industry compared to the UK was attributed to its strategic approach to resource management, state ownership and control, fiscal discipline, support for domestic industries, and collaborative governance practices. These factors enabled Norway to harness its petroleum wealth effectively for the benefit of its citizens while maintaining a stable and diversified economy. Social Democracy prevailing over right wing free market libertarianism for the benefit of all the people in the country. Privatizing YPF would be a huge error.

Here here, couldn't agree more.

 

[TWB103]

Well, Trump is Milei's hero so if he follows Trump's lead he will dial back on the extreme libertarianism.