Lanata Deported From Venezuela

[sesamosinsal]

A public who cannot read Diario Registrado but once and immediately identify it as a blatant propaganda rag - not a biased newspaper, simply a propaganda rag - deserves to be led by CFK.

Listen to yourself. If you replaced "Diario Registrado" with "Fox News," you would sound just like the left in the U.S., as if the New York Times and the Washington Post aren't propaganda outlets.

Just to reiterate, I do believe that the entire system here is corrupt -- Macri, Cristina, Carrió, et al. I am not sure if there is any way to fix it. Taking money out of politics will not fix the problem, as it's far more profound than just where political campaigns get their money. We're facing the same problem in the U.S.

That said, anyone can play your game of laying out cases of corruption involving Macri or his associates:

Odebrecht aportó fondos para la campaña de Pro y otros partidos están bajo la lupa - La Nación
Allanaron IECSA, la constructora que era del primo del presidente Mauricio Macri - Clarín
En Brasil, hallan mails que vinculan a la empresa del primo de Macri con las coimas de Odebrecht - Clarín
Macri defendió a Niembro y se mostró con él en campaña - La Nación
El PRO reconoce los actos de corrupción y baja a Niembro de su candidatura- Ámbito
El fiscal Federico Delgado pidió que la causa por los Panamá Papers siga en el fuero federal - Clarín

See how easy it is to gather up a bunch of controversial news, tie them together, and then come to the conclusion that "Macri is corrupt!" because where there's smoke, there's fire?

 

[ben]

I haven't been up to speed all that much with recent news (thank heavens).
However, regarding the NYT, Post and Fox and Diario Registrado I will say this:
I was very clear that I do not put bias on the same level as I do outright propaganda. It's a fine distinction, but it exists nonetheless.

The few times I read anything out of Diario Registrado - usually when it was quoted by bajocero or some other clown - it was not simply opinionated reporting, it was forgery. Moreover, the clumsy sort of forgery which insults one's intelligence and makes you understand it isn't being written for normal people - it's been written for a certain Argentine stereotype, who posesses a fifth-grade understanding of civics economics etc.

NYT and WaPo may be opinionated publications, but a discerning reader can see those plainly. There is rarely a hidden agenda. And some care is taken to stick to facts. Fox is definitely looser, but more in the sense of making a mountain out of a molehill or reading politics into situations where there is none. But rarely do

 

[Gringoboy]

Listen to yourself. If you replaced "Diario Registrado" with "Fox News," you would sound just like the left in the U.S., as if the New York Times and the Washington Post aren't propaganda outlets.

Just to reiterate, I do believe that the entire system here is corrupt -- Macri, Cristina, Carrió, et al. I am not sure if there is any way to fix it. Taking money out of politics will not fix the problem, as it's far more profound than just where political campaigns get their money. We're facing the same problem in the U.S.

That said, anyone can play your game of laying out cases of corruption involving Macri or his associates:

Odebrecht aportó fondos para la campaña de Pro y otros partidos están bajo la lupa - La Nación
Allanaron IECSA, la constructora que era del primo del presidente Mauricio Macri - Clarín
En Brasil, hallan mails que vinculan a la empresa del primo de Macri con las coimas de Odebrecht - Clarín
Macri defendió a Niembro y se mostró con él en campaña - La Nación
El PRO reconoce los actos de corrupción y baja a Niembro de su candidatura- Ámbito
El fiscal Federico Delgado pidió que la causa por los Panamá Papers siga en el fuero federal - Clarín

See how easy it is to gather up a bunch of controversial news, tie them together, and then come to the conclusion that "Macri is corrupt!" because where there's smoke, there's fire?

It's very convenient to paint the entire political system as corrupt as hell, throw Macri, CFK and Carrio into the same pot and then postulate from your pedestal, but you fail to acknowledge that there is at least a semblance of cleaning up going on here.
Lilita Carrio corrupt? You'll be throwing Stolbiser in next.
I think most of us agree that what happens in Argentine politics may never happen in our countries, especially how so many politicians appear to get away with murder, with nothing more than a slap on the wrist.
As I see it, the previous government under CFK was bare faced in stealing and very adept at covering their tracks. What is disappointing is seeing the level of support they still garner and a legal system that needs a complete overhaul.

 

[semigoodlookin]

It's the same circular argument I hear from most CFK supporters and it essentially boils down to "but Macri".

A total denial of wrongdoing (by CFK supporters) when corruption was clearly endemic in the previous government shows some people are consuming the wrong infromation. I agree with Ben that the "smoke" absolutley should be investigated. If CFK is corrupt and guilty has nothing to do with Macri's own guilt or lack thereof. They are seperate issues and have seperate parameters for investigation. If Macri is guilty of anything, hopefully it will be revealed over time and he will face punishment. However, the cases cited against him in this thread have mostly led to legal dead ends.

This is the clear distinction. CFK's case is not a legal dead end. There is smoke, and it should be investigated by law and press. Bradley is obeying the classic Argentine method of shrugging one's shoulders and saying, "everybody does it" as if that is a defense.

at worst, CFK supporters should be cautious about the investigation if they believe her innocent, but they should be able to accept that there is enough smoke and enough links that investigation is warranted. At best, they should be thinking this woman and her people stole from the country and should be reassesing their aleigences. Instead, they do that fingers in ears and la, la, la thing.

 

[sesamosinsal]

This is the clear distinction. CFK's case is not a legal dead end. There is smoke, and it should be investigated by law and press. Bradley is obeying the classic Argentine method of shrugging one's shoulders and saying, "everybody does it" as if that is a defense.

I never said any of that, and that's not my argument. What I am saying is that the entire system is corrupt. How you fix it, no idea. Investigate her, but also investigate Macri. Also, stop holding Macri up as being some defender of transparency and anticorruption. He's just as bad as everyone else in the political class, and that's because you have to be.

I'll quote the article - Corruption is in the system, beyond the names - from La Nación again:

López encarna un sistema, sin embargo, que lejos está de acotarse al kirchnerismo. Así funciona la política y así se hacen los negocios con el Estado argentino desde hace décadas. Sea que la gestión esté en manos de peronistas, radicales, partidos provinciales o vecinalistas. Funciona con dinero negro, con "retornos", "sobres", "aportes" y "contribuciones" y muchos otros eufemismos que definen la música con la que bailan aquellos que quieren bailar con el poder.

¿Por qué? Porque aunque lo nieguen los equipos de campaña de los tres principales candidatos a la presidencia durante 2015 –Mauricio Macri, Daniel Scioli y Sergio Massa– competir con chances reales de llegar a la Casa Rosada les demandó más de 1000 millones de pesos a cada uno. Que lo nieguen, si quieren, pero es así y sus propios equipos de campaña lo admiten con la puerta cerrada. Y hay que juntar ese dinero… ¿Cómo lo recaudaron? ¿De quiénes? ¿A cambio de qué?

 

[ben]

The difference is simple: Macri professes at every turn his respect for the judicial process, and for being investigated himself.

At the very least, he pays lip service to the concept that nobody is above the law.

Should the investigation uncover that he has been stonewalling, obstructing, etc, I guarantee you that everyone will know about it and fast. And it will all work out.

Meanwhile, CFK's approach to the justice system so much as looking her in her direction seems to be much more of a kind with that of DJT. Can barely be bothered to maintain even the pretense of not being above the law.

 

[sesamosinsal]

At the very least, he pays lip service to the concept that nobody is above the law.

Quite the low bar you're setting for him. Anyway, I respect your opinion and your contributions on these subjects.

 

[ben]

Quite the low bar you're setting for him.

I get that that was said in jest, but again:

A. I said at the very least. Meaning, even if he turns out to personally be knee-deep in corruption.
Of which so far AFAIK we have seen no credible evidence, at all.
B. As I said at the outset of this thread, the score his administration has earned is decidedly mixed. My comments here were specifically regarding respect for the rule of law, and that lumping everyone in together is both inaccurate as well as highly unproductive.

Such a conflation - by definition - benefits, and is often the aim of, the worst actor. The K clan, or any other corrupt outfits, need not demonstrate their own respect for rules and norms. Much easier to raise some smoke and mirrors regarding their rivals, and voila! Everyone's really the same - just give it all up.

I respect your opinion and your contributions on these subjects.

Appreciate that. The sentiment is mutual - hence my breaking of my self-imposed ban on engaging here.