Prisoners Vote As Well

[julian63]

Bajo, you think you are winning an argument (s), but frankly, I think you are deluded. Glad you had a nice dinner conversation with Nils, apparently an author of some material you think persuasive, however, I challenge you to support your assertion that American courts use jails (the criminal justice system) to alter the voting base. Some felons in some states in the US are barred from voting and some may petition to regain their right to vote. If you really think that people are sent to jail (felons, mind you) because some mysterious force in the US believes it will change the outcome of elections, I have a bridge I want to sell you.

 

[julian63]

Are you trying to say that it is an abuse of one's human or civil rights to deny the right to vote to convicted felons? By the way, does the article you linked above in #11 say convicted felons have the right to vote in Arg or only " las personas detenidas sin condena.?"

Bajo, did you answer this? I really can't tell if your gobbledygook was intended as an answer.

 

[julian63]

80% of people under arrest are not convicted in this country.
The 2 people who voted and everybody here were scandalized are not convicted.
You need to be convicted to over 3 years to have your legal capacity suspended.

What does this mean? 2 people ...who , what?
Ok, so in Argentina, someone sentenced to 3 years or more can't vote. So what? Other countries and other jurisdictions have similar but not exactly the same kind of laws.
p.s. You say 80% of the people arrested in Arg are convicted. Does that take into account those who plea bargain? Is that supposed to indicate that the courts are inefficient or that too many arrests are improperly made?

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Bajo, you think you are winning an argument (s), but frankly, I think you are deluded. Glad you had a nice dinner conversation with Nils, apparently an author of some material you think persuasive, however, I challenge you to support your assertion that American courts use jails (the criminal justice system) to alter the voting base. Some felons in some states in the US are barred from voting and some may petition to regain their right to vote. If you really think that people are sent to jail (felons, mind you) because some mysterious force in the US believes it will change the outcome of elections, I have a bridge I want to sell you.

I think, instead, that you must read Nils because ignorancy is not a bliss and we are not equals on this subject. A debate is possible, only, if we are more or less in the same level of knowledge, otherwise I can teach you and you can learn some if you arrogancy allows you.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

What does this mean? 2 people ...who , what?
Ok, so in Argentina, someone sentenced to 3 years or more can't vote. So what? Other countries and other jurisdictions have similar but not exactly the same kind of laws.
p.s. You say 80% of the people arrested in Arg are convicted. Does that take into account those who plea bargain? Is that supposed to indicate that the courts are inefficient or that too many arrests are improperly made?

Read!
Lazaro Baez and Farina voted and the whole scandal was about them. They are not sentenced.

I assert 80% are not sentence.

Plea bargaining is sentence.

It is not inneficiency, it is the Spanish culture.

 

[MikeB12]

Bajo, you think you are winning an argument (s), but frankly, I think you are deluded. Glad you had a nice dinner conversation with Nils, apparently an author of some material you think persuasive, however, I challenge you to support your assertion that American courts use jails (the criminal justice system) to alter the voting base. Some felons in some states in the US are barred from voting and some may petition to regain their right to vote. If you really think that people are sent to jail (felons, mind you) because some mysterious force in the US believes it will change the outcome of elections, I have a bridge I want to sell you.

I can't say I agree with many of Bajo's political opinions on here, but you must read The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander. There is also a documentary on Netflix the 13th that covers the topic. The disenfranchisement of african americans in the US is systematic. Many felons gain the status through minor drug charges, and are after stripped of voting rights, rights to food stamps, public housing, job discrimination, etc.

Florida has some of the strictest laws on the topic, and has the most disenfranchised felons in the nation. Bush won the presidency by 500 votes in Florida in 2000. 1.5 million people can't vote in Florida due to felony convictions.

When disenfranchisement potentially means the difference between what party and group of people hold power and the financial benefits that come along with that power, yes, I see a very clear incentive to disenfranchise poor mostly african americans.

 

[julian63]

I concede there are a higher % of non whites in prison than exists in the society in general; however, I do not believe that convictions of non-whites are facilitated because those doing the arresting, prosecuting, judging and jurying are incentivized to game the system in order to disenfranchise any group.
Nor do I oppose disenfranchising someone from creating law when they have shown themselves incapable of following the law. As I posted above, the right to maintain the vote or to regain it varies from state to state in the US.
p.s. Why are there so few black-skinned people in Bs As when the slave trade was active here until the early 20th century?

 

[julian63]

Read!
Lazaro Baez and Farina voted and the whole scandal was about them. They are not sentenced.

I assert 80% are not sentence.

Plea bargaining is sentence.

It is not inneficiency, it is the Spanish culture.

What is your point concerning Baez and Farina . Can you clarify?
Yes, I misspoke when I inquired why you mentioned that 80% of people under arrest are convicted in this country when what you actually said was that "80% of people under arrest are not convicted in this country." So the cause of such a low conviction rate is the "Spanish culture?" I find that very curious. 80% of persons arrested are not sentenced (presumably not found guilty). If true, that strikes me as the sign of an inefficient judicial system or an overly aggressive police system, not the Spanish culture. Do other Spanish jurisdictions have such odd rates of conviction/sentencing?

 

[MikeB12]

I concede there are a higher % of non whites in prison than exists in the society in general; however, I do not believe that convictions of non-whites are facilitated because those doing the arresting, prosecuting, judging (including juries) are incentivized to effect the outcome of elections by disenfranchising any one group. I do not believe those involved with the administration of various criminal justice systems on the various state and or fed levels purposely game the system. The resulting disenfranchisement of non-whites is an effect, not a motivating cause.
Nor do I have a problem barring some people from creating law when they have failed to obey criminal law. In the US, the right of felons to vote (or regain that right) varies from state to state. Seek Wikipedia link I posted above.

I agree with you that those doing the arresting, prosecuting, judging aren't incentivized to effect the outcome of elections by disenfranchising any one group.

I'd argue that the way the laws are written leads to a mass incarceration and disenfranchisement of mostly non-whites due partly to a bias in the system (arresting officers, prosecutors, to the judges), among other factors. An effect like you say, and I do believe its a beneficial effect that some in power wish to preserve. Other beneficial effects are more profits for privatized prisons and cuts to welfare programs. There is, however, a motivation not to a reform a broken system that disproportionately punishes non-whites for the same behavior that whites engage in at the same rate because of the benefits mentioned above.

I don't believe non violent drug offenders should forever be banned from voting.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

I concede there are a higher % of non whites in prison than exists in the society in general; however, I do not believe that convictions of non-whites are facilitated because those doing the arresting, prosecuting, judging and jurying are incentivized to game the system in order to disenfranchise any group.
Nor do I oppose disenfranchising someone from creating law when they have shown themselves incapable of following the law. As I posted above, the right to maintain the vote or to regain it varies from state to state in the US.
p.s. Why are there so few black-skinned people in Bs As when the slave trade was active here until the early 20th century?

Because they gave them freedom, a rifle, a sword and the right to kill Spaniards and they defeated the strongest army of those days giving freedom to half south America.