Protest Protocols Argentina/chile/u.s.a.

[mmoon]

In the US (major coastal cities AKA civilization haha), the general attitude of the police is if you follow the plan of your protest, stick to the route you publicized, and don't disrupt the flow of traffic and commerce, the police will actually clear a path for you and make sure you don't get run over by a frustrated driver or harassed by someone who disagrees with your issue. In many cities, that involves staying on the sidewalk and only moving into the street if you have explicit permission. Once you start blocking streets or access to businesses, the police have a right to arrest you. I've never been in a situation where the police didn't give plenty of warnings that they were going to start arresting people. Protestors would often decide in advance if they were going to get arrested or not.

In Argentina, I have been stuck behind roadblocks for more than three hours on the highway to the coast. It has happened more times than I can count. Once you arrive at ground zero of the protest, there are only a few folding chairs with people chilling out, some wilting signs and a BBQ blazing. Very little information about what is actually going on, and often very little or no police presence. Some of those roadblocks went on for weeks without action or recourse. The protestors were simply trying to force the hand of the government, usually to get a pay increase.

When you have police that aren't respected, empowered or well paid, you can't enforce what few rules of civility you do have. I support the right to protest, but not interminably, and not at the long-term expense of others.

When Macri finally acted on the insane protest taking place going to Ezeiza at the end of December last year, it gave me hope that the new rules/culture of protest would be more sane...not creepy (like Chile's sound to be).

 

[Noesdeayer]

Another Time and mmoon
Very interesting comments.
AnotherTime . Things have changed for the better in the U.S. as well. Let's hope they do in Argentina too.
mmoon : The German shepherd dogs accompaning the Carabineros are fairly common place in Chile. I ask about them and it doen't seem to upset the local population too
much.This could change with time but,unfortunately,respect for the law simply because a law exists is still a new concept in Latin America.
The saying in Spanish is,"Hecha la ley,hecha la trampa"---- "Where there's a lae,there's a way to get around it".

 

[clooz]

Have things changed for the better in the US? The protesters and police seem to me to have become more polarized in their attitudes and confrontations. The protesters capture police misconduct on small video cameras, and hack into government files. The police departments have created swat teams that have armored personnel carriers, military weapons, and drones that record protesters identities and add them to blacklists. There's a newish documentary "Peace Officer" that investigates police engagement protocols from the police perspective. According the documentary, there are 15 raids by police swat teams a night in the US, in which police break into a home to serve a routine search warrant. People wake up confused, offer a protest and are killed. There is no video tape and the killing is excused.

 

[EJLarson]

Have things changed for the better in the US? The protesters and police seem to me to have become more polarized in their attitudes and confrontations. The protesters capture police misconduct on small video cameras, and hack into government files. The police departments have created swat teams that have armored personnel carriers, military weapons, and drones that record protesters identities and add them to blacklists. There's a newish documentary "Peace Officer" that investigates police engagement protocols from the police perspective. According the documentary, there are 15 raids by police swat teams a night in the US, in which police break into a home to serve a routine search warrant. People wake up confused, offer a protest and are killed. There is no video tape and the killing is excused.

May we step back for a moment? For those who aren't aware, there is no "the police" in the US. Googling tells us the following:

"12,501 local police departments. 3,063 sheriffs' offices. 50 primary state law enforcement agencies."

Add to this the federal agencies; e.g., FBI, US Marshals, etc. Every one has its own practices and policies. No blanket statement could be made that covers all of these. Those sweeping claims above are, as we're all aware, fodder for countless movies and TV scripts, but in the main, police work is as boring and simple as any other occupation.

Misconduct happens. It's not endemic and it's often discovered and prosecuted. "The police" are those who have chosen law enforcement as a career. Most are proud of their choice. My son is one of those.

 

[clooz]

The discussion is about the changing protocols used in confrontations between police and civilians engaged in lawful protests. I'd be interested in your review of the actual investigative evidence in the documentary Peace Officer, which was made by a retired police chief, who takes great pains to be accurate in his claims. The documentary does go on to report on the scope of US-wide use of militarized police actions in different jurisdictions. I'd rather take his views than google. The film argues that the problem of very excessive use of militarized force is widespread (not whether it is endemic), and that the protocols of engagement should be changed because they lead to many unnecesary deaths, which are then covered up.

What interests me is to see the protocols from both sides - as they are changed by protesters and onlookers, and as they are changed by the police (the many police departments and individuals).

The film leaves the clear impression that most all domestic police forces in the US are aquiring heavily militarized units, that this is a continuing trend, and that these units are a serious problem because protocols are allowing widespread escalation of disproportionate violence by one side.

 

[Noesdeayer]

EJLarson.
A very explicative post Having lived outside the U.S. since 1979,I have had little or no contact with law enforcement there.
However,in Latin America, with the possible execptions of Chile and Costa Rica, police misconduct has been rampant for decades.
This is changing albeit slowly.Its another matter that Macri says is high up on his "To Do List"
Let's hope so !

 

[EJLarson]

The film leaves the clear impression that most all domestic police forces in the US are aquiring heavily militarized units, that this is a continuing trend, and that these units are a serious problem because protocols are allowing widespread escalation of disproportionate violence by one side.

Haven't seen the film and doubt if I will. Your statement that, "most all domestic police forces in the US are aquiring heavily militarized units" is, to be clear, bullshit. You are obviously sincere in your concerns, but the vast majority of the 18,000 individual police departments are 20 to 100 people, under the control of city or county governments. "Militarize" their operations? - they couldn't afford it if they wanted, and they don't want or need to.

I'm sure that if we look not at small-town agencies but at cities the size of Philadelphia or Los Angeles, we'll find different approaches to "[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]protocols used in confrontations between police and civilians engaged in lawful protests" and, I'm sure, equipment to carry them out (including maybe some military-style gear). But why do you need to say "lawful?" Why not just "protests?" Or is your assumption that the police will always overreact? Possible bias here?[/background]

From my son's experience in Florida and Texas, community relations is the highest priority in today's agencies (that wasn't always true). Use of force by an officer is always reviewed, and not automatically condoned. There are, and always have been, poorly-trained and supervised cops on the small forces. That's a fact unlikely to change, given the structure and budgets of law enforcement. But that's a long way from an impending police state with tanks rolling through the streets shooting at peaceful citizens that you seem to fear.

 

[clooz]

I do agree that there is much biased and sensationalized use of police in stories for film, and all other media. There appears to be both extremely positive and negative bias at work these days in the media. All of this bias obscures the facts and inflames opinion. I can imagine the frustration of all police who are working in such an environment.

More interesting to me is the overall trend in the US for decision making to become more belief-based vs evidence-based. People seem broadly satisfied with opinion for which there is no evidence and will not check their facts before making claims.

The film doesn't focus on large police forces, it focusses it's detailed investigation on several small townships, but I don't know their actual size.

From a Salon article that has some numbers on this: "
In 1984, according to Radley Balko’s Rise of the Warrior Cop, about 26% of towns with populations between 25,000 and 50,000 had SWAT teams. By 2005, that number had soared to 80% and it’s still rising, though SWAT statistics are notoriously hard to come by.
As the number of SWAT teams has grown nationwide, so have the raids. Every year now, there are approximately 50,000 SWAT raids in the United States, according to Professor Pete Kraska of Eastern Kentucky University’s School of Justice Studies. In other words, roughly 137 times a day a SWAT team assaults a home and plunges its inhabitants and the surrounding community into terror."

Re your claim that small police forces cannot afford the military gear: the film reports that the military gear is being *donated* to local police forces by the military on condition that it is actively used within one year and that police officers are trained in it's use. Having taken the donation, they then are required to go out and find things to use it for, and people to practice on.

I don't think I'll be shot at by tanks or such. I'll be busy fly fishing in Patagonia. If Chile attacks then yes I may eat my words. Good luck to your son. May he live long and prosper.