Protest Trump Inauguration And Women's March At Us Embassy

mmoon

Active Member
I think we both agree that access to family planning and contraception is a right. But I don't think it is the American's taxpayer responsibility to provide family planning and contraceptives to the rest of the world. As an American tax payer, it would be weird to me to witness American women in Argentina and Argentine women protesting because American tax payers are no longer paying for their family planning needs (which I don't think is the case in Argentina). But if it is, they should oo protest in front of the Casa Rosada for contraceptives instead, specially since Argentine taxes are no joke.
I think we have a different philosophy about the role of government, and it's probably pretty representative of one of the general differences between Democrats (or left leaning political parties) and Republicans (or right leaning parties), but I do think that rich and powerful governments have a responsibility to contribute positively to the betterment of the world. We sure are involved in a lot of wars and other extremely expensive propositions that I don't like supporting as an American taxpayer. Spending $600 million of US money to help support 27 million women and couples to be able to make a proactive choice about having a family seems like an excellent investment to me. I'm pro-child and also pro-choice. I want every child to be a wanted child. That starts with education and contraception, and hopefully only includes abortion as a last resort. I can only imagine what a difference it would make in this world if every woman and couple was empowered to decide how many children they choose to have and love.
 

camberiu

Registered
I think we have a different philosophy about the role of government,
We sure do.

and it's probably pretty representative of one of the general differences between Democrats (or left leaning political parties) and Republicans (or right leaning parties)
Not really. Liberals call me crazy conservative. Conservatives call me a pinko commie. I think you have a lot more in common politically speaking with Republicans (and Trump) than I do.

but I do think that rich and powerful governments have a responsibility to contribute positively to the betterment of the world.
And that is why Trump won. That is why the Brexit won. It is a backlash against many things, including that attitude of sending working class people of developed countries the bill for solving world problems.

We sure are involved in a lot of wars and other extremely expensive propositions that I don't like supporting as an American taxpayer.
We sure are. Did you protest any of them over the past 8 years? Did you cast your last presidential vote to the mastermind of many of those wars? Or is it only gender issue that get pushes your buttons?

Spending $600 million of US money to help support 27 million women and couples to be able to make a proactive choice about having a family seems like an excellent investment to me.
To you it is. But to a lot of folks it is not. And they were very vocal about that in the last election.
Is $600 million to pay for contraceptives worldwide a lot in the grand scheme of things? Not really. It is not even a rounding error on the US government expenses. But the symbolism of it is immense, specially in a country where many are feeling left behind. And the fact that many on the left fail to even realize that is what enable people like Trump to come into power.
 

mmoon

Active Member
Let's keep the language neutral here. I don't know you and you don't me, but I do take issue with blanket statements such that imply that protesting is stupid and liberals just don't get it. I have protested many times in the past 25 years on a range of issues, and not only against Republican initiatives. I have also volunteered my time to help those who need it, rather than just talking about the importance of helping others.

I believe we are a world community, not just a collection of individuals only looking out for our own self interests. The problems we face (like climate change, unless of course you think that doesn't exist) must be addressed and solved on a global scale. To think that the US can suddenly isolate itself from the world's problems is ridiculous. And let's be honest, we will still be involved whenever oil is involved, or the interests of our powerful companies and well-connected citizens. We will still have plenty of budget available and political justification for keeping our hands in those messy international pies. The America First rallying cry rings hollow especially when it's applied selectively by the same businessmen who don't pay taxes, have offshore accounts, base their companies in tax shelter countries and move jobs out of the US, all while taking advantage of bankruptcy protection, lawsuits and tax breaks.

I've traveled much of the US and I see how many of our communities are shells of their former selves. If you believe this new administration has the best interests of working people at heart, then we are coming from two different planets, and on my planet, climate change is real.
 

camberiu

Registered
Let's keep the language neutral here. I don't know you and you don't me, but I do take issue with blanket statements such that imply that protesting is stupid and liberals just don't get it.
I don't think protests in general are stupid. I do think protests based on selective outrage and political expediency, instead of principles, like the ones against Trump right now, specially in Argentina, are hypocritical, ridiculous, and serve to validate Trump's narrative instead of countering it.

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]I believe we are a world community, not just a collection of individuals only looking out for our own self interests. The problems we face (like climate change, unless of course you think that doesn't exist) must be addressed and solved on a global scale. To think that the US can suddenly isolate itself from the world's problems is ridiculous. [/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]
[/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]I don't disagree with that. And I don't think most of Americans do either. But the perception that they have, which a bunch of Argentines protesting against cuts on birth control pills paid by the US reinforces, is that these problems are not being solved globally, but instead are being laid squarely on the foot of the American taxpayer. [/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]Is that 100% true? No. But it is not 100% false either. Aid can only go so far, and many developing countries (Argentina included) have been falling short of doing the bare minimum of due diligence on their side. [/background]

I have protested many times in the past 25 years on a range of issues, and not only against Republican initiatives.
That is great. Have you protested against Obama's drone strikes? His unconstitutional spying on its own citizens? The American intervention in Libya that overthrew Qaddafi and created the biggest humanitarian crisis in modern history? His handouts to Wall Street? I am skeptical that you have, but if you did, you were probably one lonely liberal protester.
And it is the absence of any meaningful protest from the left over the last 8 years or so that make the protest now seem to pointless, ridiculous and ripe for sarcasm and humor.



To think that the US can suddenly isolate itself from the world's problems is ridiculous.
It is. Just as much as it is ridiculous to think that the US should take a paternalistic approach of paying for other countries family planning. The US needs to engage the rest of the world, be a participant and an actor on the world's stage as we tackle those global problems. But the US is not the solution to the world's problem and should not see it self as such.

And let's be honest, we will still be involved whenever oil is involved, or the interests of our powerful companies and well-connected citizens.
Unfortunately you are right. That will continue to be the case, just like it was during the previous administration and every administration before it.

If you believe this new administration has the best interests of working people at heart, then we are coming from two different planets, and on my planet, climate change is real.
I hold no regard towards Trump or the current administration. I never supported him. I did not vote for him, and I am 100% sure he is a con artist. But unlike you, I don't see him as a problem. I see him as a symptom of a very serious and fundamental problem, which is the population's complete loss of faith on the institution of Republicanism. Trump is the backlash against what George Carlin warned about over 15 years ago. And when you protest against him specifically, instead of protesting against the circumstances that made his candidacy viable, I think you not only miss the big picture, but you also validate him as a politician. If you remove Trump you solve nothing. If you had elected Hillary, you would have solved nothing. Not only would you have solved nothing, but you'd have probably created the environment to breed an even nastier Trump like politician down the road.
The issue is not fighting Trump and America First. The issue is understanding the reasons that allowed Trump and America first to rise and address those instead. And protesting for birth control pills in front of the US embassy in Argentina sure hell does not look like an effective way of doing that to me.
 

Ries

Registered
Something over 3 million people protested on Saturday.
I find it amusing that one anonymous troll, without a name, gender, location, photo, or history, knows that every one of them is "[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]based on selective outrage and political expediency, instead of principles".

You are a Trump Apoligist, nothing more.

and you are quite misled if you think it was Argentine women protesting for birth control at the embassy.
It was Finnish, Italian, Iranian, Dutch, Mexican, Chilean, Canadian, and mostly, American Men AND Women, protesting against cronyism, income inequality, imperial warmaking, big money controlling government, womens rights, certainly, but more importantly Trumps lack of morals, ethics, brains, and the direction he is, every day, taking america in.[/background]
 

camberiu

Registered
Something over 3 million people protested on Saturday.
I find it amusing that one anonymous troll, without a name, gender, location, photo, or history, knows that every one of them is "[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]based on selective outrage and political expediency, instead of principles".[/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]That the criticism comes from someone without a name, gender, location, photo or history makes it even more amusing.[/background]

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]
[/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]You are a Trump Apoligist, nothing more.[/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]
[/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]He said it better.[/background]

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]
It was Finnish, Italian, Iranian, Dutch, Mexican, Chilean, Canadian, and mostly, American Men AND Women, protesting against cronyism, income inequality, imperial warmaking, big money controlling government, womens rights, certainly, but more importantly Trumps lack of morals, ethics, brains, and the direction he is, every day, taking america in.[/background]
And where were all these [background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]Finnish, Italian, Iranian, Dutch, Mexican, Chilean, Canadian, and mostly, American Men AND Women over the last 8 years? It is not as if [/background]cronyism, income inequality, imperial warmaking and big money controlling government started just now.
 

Ries

Registered
I have two basic rules about taking anything seriously on the internet-

1- original content. the poster should be creating the content, taking the pictures, writing the text, and be responsible for what they say- OR- directly linking to a real source- a real place with actual people with names and provable existence and provenance.

2- real human beings. this means names, and provable existence- background information easily available. everything about me, for example, is easily google-able. My name is Ries. my website has been posted here numerous times. I have met Jan, and Tom, and Nancy, in person. I know they are real.

Anyone, or Anything, who does not meet both those requirements is simply a troll.
could be russian government employee, or a yugoslav teenager, a wannabe white nationalist in mom's basement, or even a program.

But without those two basic requirements, I take NOTHING the least bit seriously.

troll on, senor. You are your own best audience.
 

TWB103

Registered
I don't think protests in general are stupid. I do think protests based on selective outrage and political expediency, instead of principles, like the ones against Trump right now, specially in Argentina, are hypocritical, ridiculous, and serve to validate Trump's narrative instead of countering it.

[/background][/font][/color]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]I don't disagree with that. And I don't think most of Americans do either. But the perception that they have, which a bunch of Argentines protesting against cuts on birth control pills paid by the US reinforces, is that these problems are not being solved globally, but instead are being laid squarely on the foot of the American taxpayer. [/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]Is that 100% true? No. But it is not 100% false either. Aid can only go so far, and many developing countries (Argentina included) have been falling short of doing the bare minimum of due diligence on their side. [/background]


That is great. Have you protested against Obama's drone strikes? His unconstitutional spying on its own citizens? The American intervention in Libya that overthrew Qaddafi and created the biggest humanitarian crisis in modern history? His handouts to Wall Street? I am skeptical that you have, but if you did, you were probably one lonely liberal protester.
And it is the absence of any meaningful protest from the left over the last 8 years or so that make the protest now seem to pointless, ridiculous and ripe for sarcasm and humor.




It is. Just as much as it is ridiculous to think that the US should take a paternalistic approach of paying for other countries family planning. The US needs to engage the rest of the world, be a participant and an actor on the world's stage as we tackle those global problems. But the US is not the solution to the world's problem and should not see it self as such.


Unfortunately you are right. That will continue to be the case, just like it was during the previous administration and every administration before it.


I hold no regard towards Trump or the current administration. I never supported him. I did not vote for him, and I am 100% sure he is a con artist. But unlike you, I don't see him as a problem. I see him as a symptom of a very serious and fundamental problem, which is the population's complete loss of faith on the institution of Republicanism. Trump is the backlash against what George Carlin warned about over 15 years ago. And when you protest against him specifically, instead of protesting against the circumstances that made his candidacy viable, I think you not only miss the big picture, but you also validate him as a politician. If you remove Trump you solve nothing. If you had elected Hillary, you would have solved nothing. Not only would you have solved nothing, but you'd have probably created the environment to breed an even nastier Trump like politician down the road.
The issue is not fighting Trump and America First. The issue is understanding the reasons that allowed Trump and America first to rise and address those instead. And protesting for birth control pills in front of the US embassy in Argentina sure hell does not look like an effective way of doing that to me.
I agree with all of what you say but the fact that you keep repeating the same thing and don't focus enough on the solutions suggests that you are here to debate for debate's sake right? (aka soft trolling)
 

camberiu

Registered
I agree with all of what you say but the fact that you keep repeating the same thing and don't focus enough on the solutions suggests that you are here to debate for debate's sake right? (aka soft trolling)
The "solution" is quite complex and includes a complete revisit on how we structure our government, our expectations towards it, how much power we assign to it, how much of the "burden" of running a society we should delegate to the local community, NGOs, etc...instead of to a central state authority. I think few people here would be willing to read a long treaty about it.
But a good first step I think is to drop the partisanship, the left x right bullshit, and focus on the issues. What do I mean by that?
If bombing people is wrong, then it is wrong no matter what party does it.
if giving handouts to Wall Street is wrong, then it is wrong no matter what party does it.
And so on. But instead we have this silly dispute of Right x left or Republican x Democrat when these are just labels that detract from the main issue. Part of the solution is to move the debate beyond that, and focus on why otherwise good and decent people voted for a used car salesman as president.
 

EJLarson

Registered
I have two basic rules about taking anything seriously on the internet-

1- original content. the poster should be creating the content, taking the pictures, writing the text, and be responsible for what they say- OR- directly linking to a real source- a real place with actual people with names and provable existence and provenance.

2- real human beings. this means names, and provable existence- background information easily available. everything about me, for example, is easily google-able. My name is Ries. my website has been posted here numerous times. I have met Jan, and Tom, and Nancy, in person. I know they are real.

Anyone, or Anything, who does not meet both those requirements is simply a troll.
could be russian government employee, or a yugoslav teenager, a wannabe white nationalist in mom's basement, or even a program.

But without those two basic requirements, I take NOTHING the least bit seriously.

troll on, senor. You are your own best audience.
Calling bullshit on hypocrisy is not trolling. If posting requires providing detailed solutions to every problem noted, this would become a very lonely place, because all posting would stop.

But maybe this post violates your third, unwritten rule: "has to agree with me, politically."

Edit: and the above can apply to all of us, circumstances depending. It's hard to see out of our own paradigms.
 
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