Real estate offices: how do they work?

[bernardinho1961]

If you actually had a boleto, why wasn't the seller there? Who did you give the money to?

As I recall I was not physically present at the boleto. I think I faxed docs and the money exchanged hands without my presence. I may have misstated the amount of time elapsing between the acceptance of the contract and the boleto. I may have confused it for the amount of time between the boleto and the escritura. I needed to stretch out that time frame for tax considerations. In any event, I recall that the time frames were subject to negotiation between the parties.

It's the escirbano's job to see that everything is done ethically, not the seller's agent (broker) or the buyer's agent. It really doesn't matter what anyone else says or does. As far as I'm concerned, using a buyers agent is like using an immigration lawyer. If you have to do either you probably aren't ready to live in Argentina.

Duh? It most certainly does matter TO ME what my agent says or does during the search and negotiating process! That's true even if Argentine law imposes no requirements for him to be ethical as you appear to confirm. But aside from the legalistics of it, are you seriously suggesting that my agent has no moral or professional duty to be ethical in his dealings with me? That it matters not what he says to me or anyone else even if he lies to get a sale? Astounding. Maybe it is you who have lived in Argentina too long as opposed to me not being ready to live in Argentina.

In the US, my agent has a fiduciary duty to volunteer, without a request from me, everything that he knows relevant to the transaction that might affect my decision to buy a property. That would include the existence of a special assessment by the homeowners assn, the identity of the true owner if he knows a front is being used, augmentation of his fee by virtue of me buying a property listed by his own brokerage firm, options concerning the amount of the downpayment (for example, a boleto for more than x % of the sale price deprives the seller of the right to back out by paying a penalty), tax obligations that would be triggered by my purchase, etc.

At the very least I expect my agent to provide accurate information in response to my direct querries about a myriad of matters, e.g., fees, relative property valuations, quality of neighborhoods, condition of property, how to obtain assurances regarding the condition of the property. Furthermore, I expect my agent to faithfully relay my offers to buy furniture, close without a boleto, etc. According to you he can lie to me and it matters not - it only proves I am not ready to live in Argentina.

The escribiano doesn't even come onto the scene until after a contract has been entered into. At that point the deal is a fait acompli and it is then largely irrelevant how the agents act except perhaps for outright assault and battery or armed robbery. The responsibility of the escribiano is to prepare the final deed and to confirm the legitimacy of the seller's title free and clear of undisclosed liens and encumbrances...and to apparently act as a guarantor if he makes a mistake about the validity of the title. His representations really don't affect the terms of the deal - they just paper what the parties have agreed to. A largely rote task.

Have I misunderstood you ?

 

[steveinbsas]

As I recall I was not physically present at the boleto. I think I faxed docs and the money exchanged hands without my presence. I may have misstated the amount of time elapsing between the acceptance of the contract and the boleto. I may have confused it for the amount of time between the boleto and the escritura. I needed to stretch out that time frame for tax considerations. In any event, I recall that the time frames were subject to negotiation between the parties.



Duh? It most certainly does matter what my agent says or does during the search and negotiating process! Are you really suggesting that my agent has no duty to me to be ethical in his dealings with me? That it matters not what he says to me or anyone else even if he lies to get a sale? Astounding. Maybe it is you who have lived in Argentina too long as opposed to me not being ready to live in Argentina.
In the US, my agent has a fiduciary duty to volunteer, without a request from me, everything that he knows relevant to the transaction that might affect my decision to buy a property. That would include the existence of a special assessment by the homeowners assn, the identity of the true owner if he knows a front is being used, augmentation of his fee by virtue of me buying a property listed by his own brokerage firm, options concerning the amount of the downpayment (for example, a boleto for more than x % of the sale price deprives the seller of the right to back out by paying a penalty), tax obligations that would be triggered by my purchase, etc.
At the very least I expect my agent to provide accurate information in response to my direct querries about a myriad of matters, e.g., fees, relative property valuations, quality of neighborhoods, condition of property, how to obtain assurances regarding the condition of the property. Furthermore, I expect my agent to faithfully relay my offers to buy furniture, close without a boleto, etc. According to you he can lie to me and it matters not - it only proves I am not ready to live in Argentina.
The escribiano doesn't even come onto the scene until after a contract has been entered into. At that point the deal is a fait acompli and it is then largely irrelevant how the agents act except perhaps for outright assault and battery or armed robbery. The responsibility of the escribiano is to prepare the final deed and to confirm the legitimacy of the seller's title free and clear of undisclosed liens and encumbrances...and to apparently act as a guarantor if he makes a mistake about the validity of the title. His representations really don't affect the terms of the deal - they just paper what the parties have agreed to. A largely rote task.

You really need to stop comparing the US to Argentina (as in the citizen's arrest thread).

DUH is really the operative word here. At least you got that right.

The agent can screw up everything and you have no recourse (compared to the US).

Agents here rarely tell the foreign buyers about the tax obligations (especially the bienes personales tax). They can also lie about almost everything else...without recourse.

What you expect here (about a myriad of matters) doesn't mean anything.

 

[bernardinho1961]

Steve, we are in agreement that the process of buying property is very different in the US from the sport that it is in Argentina. I submitted my experience for what it was worth to the OP who was apparently contemplating entering into the market. You seem eager to ridicule me for simply retelling in some detail exactly how vast the difference is. I reiterate "duh" at this insistence on your part to ridicule my submission instead of simply confirming my conclusion that real estate brokers in Argentina can be unreliable and unethical in comparison to their US (and other) counterparts. Contrary to what you believe, I believe it is helpful to newcomers to emphasize just how different things in Argentina are when it comes to buying real estate.
That you may not have permitted yourself to be manipulated by unethical brokers during your real estate transactions is a wonderful story, but I venture to say that recounting your experience is not going to be helpful to first time buyers from the US inasmuch as you concur that brokers will lie in the regular course of business.

p.s Yes, it was a bulin and a wonderful one at that, owned by a multimillionaire who finished the place in a first class way.

 

[perry]

Steve, we are in agreement that the process of buying property is very different in the US from the sport that it is in Argentina. I submitted my experience for what it was worth to the OP who was apparently contemplating entering into the market. You seem eager to ridicule me for simply retelling in some detail exactly how vast the difference is. I reiterate "duh" at this insistence on your part to ridicule my submission instead of simply confirming my conclusion that real estate brokers in Argentina can be unreliable and unethical in comparison to their US (and other) counterparts. Contrary to what you believe, I believe it is helpful to newcomers to emphasize just how different things in Argentina are when it comes to buying real estate.
That you may not have permitted yourself to be manipulated by unethical brokers during your real estate transactions is a wonderful story, but I venture to say that recounting your experience is not going to be helpful to first time buyers from the US inasmuch as you concur that brokers will lie in the regular course of business.

p.s Yes, it was a bulin and a wonderful one at that, owned by a multimillionaire who finished the place in a first class way.

Once again you are posting with false information and also in the process defaming many honest agents who work in Buenos Aires. Do you sincerly believe that the USA agents are more ethical when they were very heaily involved in providing properties to those who could not afford with 100 percent credit. In the USA now over 15 % of mortgages are in default and the price of real estate has collapsed in many cities sending many to the poor farm.

In Argentina it is very rare that one loses a home for not paying a home loan as our system is based on giving credit to those who can afford only . The USA with its immoral system of providing easy credit to all and sundry purposely creating a bubble in the prices is to me one of the most dishonest practices of the Real estate industry that you profess to admire .

I know many expats here in Buenos Aires and not one of them has lost money buying real estate and in many cases they made excellent returns when they sold. In most of Europe and the USA properties are not selling and this is even with 50% discounts from their peak .

 

[steveinbsas]

I seriously doubt that there are many readers of this thread (including the OP) who have the resources to buy a "multimillionare's" apartment. I have "inside" information that there are very few foreign buyers now. Nonetheless, if anyone reading this thread is seriously interested in buying an apartment in BA I suggest they contact Perry first. He has access to listings starting at $65,000 USD and will provide all of the relevant information about fees and taxes.

 

[perry]

It is a well known fact that Banks work in unison with the Real Estate Industry to provide loans to clients that do not have the monies to buy a property . Most large realtors have sweetheart deals with many large banks and they get a commission from each loan that they provide . The real estate industry in the USA like in Australia has created this huge bubble effect on property prices making them reach up to US$ 12,000 a metre in Sydney . Shacks in the western suburbs there sell for over US $ 500,000 and many purchases are done with up to 100% credit provided by the realtor . To me this this is unethical as I believe in cash sales only with few exceptions.

In Remax Argentina only 8 % of sales are credito and with very strict conditions .

In regards to the Real estate industry in Buenos Aires it is a fallacy to say it is not regulated as Cuciba monitors closely realtors here.

Bernandino you talk about ethics but clearly you mention in one of your posts that the Realtor should be avoided and that direct contact with the owner should be made . Do you understand how much work it requires to sell a listing in Buenos Aires and not to mention the costs of advertising and the like . There are some that make appointments with realtors for their better properties to find the address and then they go back directly and knock on the door and try to speak to the seller. This is illegal in Argentina .

In Buenos Aires you have over 50,000 realtors of course you must exercise caution when choosing like anywhere in the world . Yes you must have a good escribano ( real estate lawyer) as he is the key to assessing if the property is worthy to buy and if the consorcio of the building is recommendable. This can be a problem in Buenos Aires as many consorcios are run poorly and as a buyer this must be checked clearly with your realtor and escribano.

 

[igor]

To answer your question, yes, US agents as a group are unquestionably more ethical than their Argentine counterparts.

Well, let's try to recapture all this once again. You bought a single apartment "in the DF 3 years ago" (where is it, by the way? Mexico?). You hired a buyer agent, and that is pretty uncommon. It is not evident, whether he was a professional real estate agent, or you just hired somebody and in this case I would rather call it a "personal assistant" or "some dude who helped me to buy an apartment". Apparently, seller agent was not involved and you bought your apt directly from owner. Overall you have no regrets about this deal.

Given all this experience, don't you think that your conclusion is a bit of overgeneralization?

I really hope you didn't have a chance to go to a dentist here yet.

 

[igor]

The agent I hired is a big player in BA and other cities outside AR and has been for a while

as far as I could tell, this didn't directly cost me anything

Either you are incredibly naive, or it should go directly into advertising forum.

 

[elhombresinnombre]

Your preference for all cash deals is myopic and misguided. Mortgage lending has succeeded in many countries for many years. Yes, for the reasons mentioned above, especially greed engendered by lax regulation, a bubble and a financial crisis resulted, but that crisis is no reason to condemn all mortgage borrowing. Generally, it is a good thing that allows people to own a home more easily.

I've got some news for you, bernardinho, it's not about one person or another's preference for cash deals, it's the way things are done in Argentina and your reaction to it comes across as - what's the word I'm searching for? - insulting? - overbearing? - superior? - when you make sweeping statements like that to your hosts, when you are a guest in their country, when you have already admitted you don't understand. There are sound historical reasons for the cash economy in housing in Argentina just as there are for the mortgage economy in countries like yours.

 

[bernardinho1961]

Either you are incredibly naive, or it should go directly into advertising forum.

Okay, please explain how it cost me to use an agent to help me find the apt. I am willing to learn.