State or federal apostille for Migración?

[lunar]

Because the NY apostille is verifying not the content of the original document but rather it is certifying that the photocopy of the original document is true, exact, unaltered and complete, Migracion will have to apply deductive reasoning to conclude that the NY apostille is in fact verifying and authenticating the original document itself.

You can create a true, exact, unaltered and complete photocopy of a fake passport, for example. And have it apostilled. It does not mean that the passport itself is genuine. No exercise in logic can change it.

You can go even further. Make a photocopy of any document, write on it "I created this exact photocopy of the original document", make a notary verify your signature and apostille it. But again, it does not guarantee that the document is authentic, so most likely it will not be accepted.

 

[GMan_27]

Yeah these are two different processes here. An apostille vs certified copy of the original, surely?

 

[Pat Murphy]

You can create a true, exact, unaltered and complete photocopy of a fake passport, for example. And have it apostilled. It does not mean that the passport itself is genuine. No exercise in logic can change it.

You can go even further. Make a photocopy of any document, write on it "I created this exact photocopy of the original document", make a notary verify your signature and apostille it. But again, it does not guarantee that the document is authentic, so most likely it will not be accepted.

Correct. Neither the State of New York nor the U.S. Dept. of State apostilles verify the contents. They end up with the same result but from different angles. They only certify on a prima facie basis that the documents are as they should be. Bureaucracies excel in resisting change. I am standing by.....

 

[Pat Murphy]

This is actually amusing in the context of an exercise in logic. For Migracion it will be like being confronted with Lewis Carroll's paradox of The Tortoise and Achilles. Because the NY apostille is verifying not the content of the original document but rather it is certifying that the photocopy of the original document is true, exact, unaltered and complete, Migracion will have to apply deductive reasoning to conclude that the NY apostille is in fact verifying and authenticating the original document itself. And as with a Dept. of State apostille, which also does not verify the content of the documents which it certifies, Migracion will be forced to assume, under equal treatment, that the content of your documents is correct. In a rational world of course.


Let me know how it turns out. While the law is on your side, the powerful forces of sloth, cognitive dissonance and authority-of-office are on theirs. I doubt that they will yield. You'd get a more well reasoned response from ChatGPT. But good luck. I wish you well setting a precedent.

This last step, which should be a formality, is, according to RADEX, taking a while. Perhaps getting escalated to President Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Camacho himself ;0)

 

[Pat Murphy]

Yeah these are two different processes here. An apostille vs certified copy of the original, surely?

It's an actual Apostille conforming to the 1961 Apostille Convention in the Hague. At first I thought that the county clerk's name was fake. I looked it up to verify that she is indeed the County Clerk for Kings County New York. Maybe Migracion will think that I am trying to troll them. Oh well. This is why living abroad is always an adventure.

 

[lunar]

Correct. Neither the State of New York nor the U.S. Dept. of State apostilles verify the contents. They end up with the same result but from different angles. They only certify on a prima facie basis that the documents are as they should be. Bureaucracies excel in resisting change. I am standing by.....

What exactly are you trying to certify? What document did this Nancy T. Sunshine sign?

Usually, some organization that participates in the Apostille system certifies that the person, who signed the document, is known to them and acts in the professional capacity.

Take a look at this (illustrational) example. Patrick O. Hatchett, who works at the Department of State, certifies that the document was signed by William G. McKinsey, who is a Section Chief of Biometric Services.

It's likely that Whitney A Clark, who works for the NY state, cannot certify that William G. McKinsey (or whoever it is in your case) works for the FBI and is authorized to issue the background check. Just because the FBI is on the federal level.

However, she can certainly certify signatures of King's county clerk and the Notaries that are licensed in the NY State.

 

[yyungmilk]

It's an actual Apostille conforming to the 1961 Apostille Convention in the Hague. At first I thought that the county clerk's name was fake. I looked it up to verify that she is indeed the County Clerk for Kings County New York. Maybe Migracion will think that I am trying to troll them. Oh well. This is why living abroad is always an adventure.

Hey Pat,

I'm having a nearly identical situation as you but a bit behind you. Did you ever figure this out? I saw a link you posted in another forum about obtaining fast apostille's from (USexpressapostille), was that for the VA document and the FBI record? And how fast did you get those documents back?

 

[Pat Murphy]

Hey Pat,

I'm having a nearly identical situation as you but a bit behind you. Did you ever figure this out? I saw a link you posted in another forum about obtaining fast apostille's from (USexpressapostille), was that for the VA document and the FBI record? And how fast did you get those documents back?

I'm still standing by with Migración; supposedly for final approval since everything was duly submitted in good order.

Yes, with US Apostille Express the documents were from the VA and FBI. I received them electronically in two days with legal, official State of New York apostilles from Kings County, NY which is Brooklyn. US Apostille Express had everything buttoned up - stamped, dated, signed and correct. Very good job and very quick. I received the paper documents here in BA a few days later.

We think that the holdup is due to "The Invasion of the Pregnant Russians" gumming up everything. There are actually some conscientious and hard working Migración employees and I hope that one of them stumbles upon the solicitation and finishes it. But with them it's the luck of the draw and they may invent or discover something else that needs to be procured, submitted, translated, stamped and legalized. Wishing you all the best.