The biggest blow to the employment rights since the dictatorship

[FrankPintor]

Somehow you mistake me for union guy, which I'm not. Have never been part of any union, in Argentina or elsewhere. I'm for strict implementation of already existing rules, work in black as the biggest task. You don't leave people to choose if to pay taxes or not, and you do that through punishment of companies, if they fail to comply. Imagine, how much money is missing in the budget, if 6 millions don't pay their share! Work in black is cáncer for society and should be harshly prosecuted.

Unions are no one's friend, they are basically mafia at that point in Argentina. They fight for themselves and that's it.

I don't think there's anything wrong with belonging to a union, I certainly did, at one point in my career, to IG Metall.

While any organization, including unions, can become corrupt and self-perpetuating, this demonization of unions by the extreme right has no place in a modern workplace. If an employee wishes to delegate some responsibility, like salary negotiations, to an organization of his choosing, why not?

 

[Musicman]

Are you able to distinguish between eliminating excessive employment legislation, including excess employee liability costs, and creating an unregulated free for all which is what Milei's DNU aims to do?

When everyone is employed off the books and pays no tax, we'll see who's cut his own throat

I 100% trust Milei with this. Thats his job and why he was voted to be President. The previous government only served to drive investment away and increase the loss of jobs.

 

[mikic007]

I don't think there's anything wrong with belonging to a union, I certainly did, at one point in my career, to IG Metall.

While any organization, including unions, can become corrupt and self-perpetuating, this demonization of unions by the extreme right has no place in a modern workplace. If an employee wishes to delegate some responsibility, like salary negotiations, to an organization of his choosing, why not?

In general, there is nothing wrong with them, and in certain countries they work very well. While they have some positive impact in Argentina also, I find some of them too powerful, and damaging, and some too weak to do anything. What you get is huge disparity in working rights between different employees. A lot of them are also too hostile, without morality and mostly taking care of their ass. Of course each union should fight for their members first, but general wellbeing of all workers should be main agenda of unions everywhere.

That I've never been member of one is more due to circumstances than my doing.

 

[NomadTrader]

I don't think there's anything wrong with belonging to a union, I certainly did, at one point in my career, to IG Metall.

While any organization, including unions, can become corrupt and self-perpetuating, this demonization of unions by the extreme right has no place in a modern workplace. If an employee wishes to delegate some responsibility, like salary negotiations, to an organization of his choosing, why not?

I agree 100% with you.

If an employee wishes to delegate some responsibility to an organization. That is their right to choose to do so. -as you say... "Choosing"

Likewise, obviously, if an employee wishes to work without delegating some responsibility to a union boss...."why not?"

Only a corrupt, thuggish mafia would oppose that.

The position of most people on the right is the same as your position: Employee chooses-whether or not- to join a union.

It is the union bosses who force workers join the union who are taking the extreme position you have outlined.

 

[FrankPintor]

I 100% trust Milei with this. Thats his job and why he was voted to be President. The previous government only served to drive investment away and increase the loss of jobs.

"We're from the government, and we're here to help (ourselves)". Looking for a clown icon here.

 

[FrankPintor]

I agree 100% with you.

If an employee wishes to delegate some responsibility to an organization. That is their right to choose to do so. -as you say... "Choosing"

Likewise, obviously, if an employee wishes to work without delegating some responsibility to a union boss...."why not?"

Only a corrupt, thuggish mafia would oppose that.

The position of most people on the right is the same as your position: Employee chooses-whether or not- to join a union.

It is the union bosses who force workers join the union who are taking the extreme position you have outlined.

I appreciate the sentiments, I've never been forced to join a union (i.e. a "closed shop"), and yes, I find being able to choose is essential.

But, "most people on the right" doesn't include Elon Musk, then? Or if we talk about organizations, Starbucks? I hesitate to include any US-centric examples, but those are very prominent. Maybe I don't have the right people on the right?

 

[mikic007]

Don't worry I don't take your words for that of a union guy.
But I do not think that blaming Milei or these specific reforms for the current (or near future) state of Argentine labor conditions or a Bangladesh-esque trajectory is fair or makes any sense at all.

Completely agree that there should be 6 million more tax payers in Argentina to pay for the whole fiesta!

The problem is one of pragmatism. Rules in Argentina don't work when people don't follow them because they have more to gain by not following them. As we see today. What good is it punishing only a company if employees are also part of the problem and complicit to covering up work en-negro making it difficult to identify and crack down on in practice (I'm saying this as an employer who has seen firsthand many potential employees turn down job offers simply because it is all en-blanco). That imbalanced approach is a sure-fire way to only increase the harm to the economy as if you burn the employers of over 6.000.000 informal workers (e.g. push many of these small businesses into bankruptcy, literally) you also burn their employees in a very brutal way, especially given the formal economy that is not exactly booming or able to suddenly absorb 6.000.000 workers.... Employment en-negro as much as being a cancer, it is also a pandora's box.

Therefore the only way around it is to give employees and employers alike less reasons to do it while also removing barriers to coming clean and changing their labour practices... otherwise it's just more of the same shit, different day.

Well described, and similar as I see it. Why I said employers should bare bigger burden? Simply, because it's way easier to control them. That is, after the government make the right moves you are mentioning. In normal countries repercussions are so dire, that no employer will risk someone in black, means no employee can even choose that option. And it's not about inspection even, everyone is afraid of crappy employee seeking easy way for lawsuit. This is how you make this works.

In meantime, in Argentina there should be some amnesty program as is for colchón dolars. Governments are most guilty for these violations, but one day Argentina has to change that, and who better than Milei? I have no fear those 6 millions jobs will dissappear overnight, people won't start cleaning their homes alone and such.

The fact is, that I know some very wealthy people that prefer all en negro, and some very humble households that are paying everything en blanco. Latter simply can't afford not to.

 

[gringoexpress]

I 100% trust Milei with this. Thats his job and why he was voted to be President. The previous government only served to drive investment away and increase the loss of jobs.

All the employment rights in the world don't matter if you've regulated jobs out of existence and the only job you can find is sitting at home playing pocket pool. A lot of people these days are delusional and don't realize that eventually people get tired of putting up with your crap and will just take their business elsewhere and leave (this applies to many things, not just the Argentinian labor market)...