The end of the Farmers Conflict

steveinbsas

Registered
Quoting CABJ:
"The official death toll of the military dictatorship is little over 8900"

I found the following article (among several others) which cites the "official" death toll as 13,000, but also notes that human rights groups (and most Argentines I know) put the number at 30.000, including those thrown (alive) from airplanes: http://upsidedownworld.org/main/content/view/568/32/

The official death toll, in either case, seems to have been derived by the same "math" that is used to calculate the current inflation rate at less than 10 percent.The fact that the farmers conflict "ended" without fatal incidents is gratifying, but if food supplies into the capital (or any major city) are ever cut off long enough for serious shortages to develop, the consequences would undoubtedly be grave, to say the least.In addition to a repeal of the export tax on agricultural products, an intended consequence of the "strike" was certainly the creation of the fear of possible food shortages. Remember what happened when Argentines could not withdraw their money
from the banks? Imagine what would happen if there is no food to buy,
even if they have the money.
 
I wouldn't use an article from a biased political activist site as a reference point when talking about los desaparecidos. La Comisión Nacional sobre la Desaparición de Personas wrote a report, you might know it as "Nunca Más". Almost all the argentines I know have this book. La Comisión does not claim to have the "definite" number, but do have 8900 documented cases of people gone missing. At least they wrote their reports based on testimonies and facts. Not on speculation. The number might be 8900, 13000 or 30000. The important thing is that the report is considered to be the work of a trustworthy Comisión. So comparing it to INDEC is shows - in my humble opinion - poor taste...
 

steveinbsas

Registered
Actually, after hearing the same number of dead repeated by Argentines with whom I have discussed the subject, I was able to find the 30,000 figure cited on a number of websites. In my previous post I just referred to the first one that I found. Others, which I hope are not considered "biased political activist sites" credited the number to "human rights groups"...including the following story by CBS news:
http://cbs2.com/national/dna.technology.argentina.2.682896.html/

Also, George Washington University referred to a "secret Chilean intelligence report which cited 22,000 people murdered or disappeared by military between 1975 and 1978."http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB185/index.htm

If I had cited the numbers from either if these websites would you consider that also to be in poor taste? The numbers may vary from source to source, but the fact that so many deaths occurred at the hands of the military and that there has been little justice for these crimes is the real issue. If there were indeed far more than the "official" 8900 dead, the "report of a trustworthy commission" would do little to further the cause of justice for the rest of the (alleged) victims would it?
 

RWS

Veteran
It would be good (and certainly would be interesting) to know just how many people were imprisoned, tortured, or killed by the latest dictatorship; and, just as with the people imprisoned, tortured, or killed by various Communist, Facist, or Nazi dictatorships, it would be good to be able to know their names.
But, just as with those who suffered and who continue to suffer under any of the many oppressive regimes throughout the world and throughout time, it is the fact of that unnecessary, evil suffering that is most shameful. From this perspective, the wrongful imprisonment, torture, or killing of even one person is ineffably horrible.
 
"steveinbsas" said:
If I had cited the numbers from either if these websites would you consider that also to be in poor taste? The numbers may vary from source to source, but the fact that so many deaths occurred at the hands of the military and that there has been little justice for these crimes is the real issue.
Comparing the work of La Comisión to INDEC statistics is poor taste.
Linking to left-wing activist sites to 'prove' that 30.000 is the real number doesn't make your statement more credible.
If there were indeed far more than the "official" 8900 dead, the "report of a trustworthy commission" would do little to further the cause of justice for the rest of the (alleged) victims would it?
The commission only publicized cases of which they had proof. It didn't deny that there weren't any other desaparecidos, just that they couldn't prove it. I believe the state should help these people in search of justice. But that's another story.
Let me state that the military dictatorship from 76-82 has been Argentina's darkest moment. I do not approve of torturings and/or killings and don't intend to defend te regime.
I just have a problem with the INDEC-Nunca Más comparison, that's all :)
 

steveinbsas

Registered
I am trying to figure out how INDEC came into play in my posts. Yes, I cited a website that you labeled a "biased political activist site" but the page I linked to: http://upsidedownworld.org/main/content/view/568/32/ does not refer (as far as I can see) to INDEC, which is an agency of the Argentine government, is it not? http://www.indec.mecon.ar/ Like the others (CBS, etc.), the website I cited only referred to "human rights groups" as the source of the 30,000 dead or missing in the Dirty War. I've seen no reference to INDEC.

Did INDEC actually estimate the number of those who disappeared during the military junta at 30,000, and, in your opinion, is INDEC an unreliable source of information?
I did find one site whereINDEC was recently credited with estimating the annual inflation rate in Argentina at less than 9%. (as pf April 2008). Frankly, that doesn't seem very credible to me.
 

CABJ

Active Member
The official death-toll of the Argentine state and every other number is an insult to the CONADEP commission.
Just read who was in the commission, before you start posting
 
To answer you:
Implicitly you're comparing the official investigation of La Comisión and their numbers to the inflation "maths" used by INDEC. I quote:
"The official death toll, in either case, seems to have been derived by the same "math" that is used to calculate the current inflation rate at less than 10 percent."
And I don't trust INDEC for a dime.
 

steveinbsas

Registered
Here is the report of La Comisión in English: for those who care to read it:
http://www.nuncamas.org/english/library/nevagain/nevagain_000.htm. Until today, I did not know that the number of 30,000 victims of the Dirty War (is it actually from INDEC?) was not accepted by those who believe the report of La Comisión to be more accurate. I derive no pleasure or sense of relief in believing that the number is only 8,900 as opposed to 30,000.

Why would INDEC exaggerate the number? What would they have to gain by doing so?
I agree with RWS. It doesn't really matter how many innocent people are harmed. Torture, kidnapping, and murder are never acceptable...in any numbers. Focusing on the larger numbers marginalizes the suffering of the individual.
 
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