The Mule Pool

[ben]

I've seen a couple of threads about the Mule Pool. I've seen the guy working on it chime in as well.

So the questions are:

1. This service appears fairly new. Can anybody personally vouch for it having worked as advertised, as a buyer or as a mule?

2. If there is a dispute about the product having been delivered/the Mule being robbed/the product being of defective quality in the buyer's opinion/etc etc etc, how is this resolved? If there is no obvious resolution, on whose side does the service choose to err? (That the service is in English, and foreigner-oriented, slightly reduces the need for caution, but still.)

3. Assuming that any contractual obligation would be rather difficult to enforce in Argentina, being that the entire point of the service is to skirt local import regs, what safety measures are in the system, aside from total trust? Which really brings us back to point 1 - anyone ever used this thing?

Thanks for any feedback!

 

[MorganF]

Hey Ben --

Yup, I'm the founder of it, so I'm going to chime in now - as you predicted. Note: I'm biased in this post because I'm, well, the founder Now, on to your three questions....

#1 -- I can't answer that since, although I've used it, I'm clearly not objective We're very small and we've had very few completed transactions so far, and I don't know if any of them read BAExpats, so I don't know if you'll get a response. I can give you the names and emails of a few people who have used it and agreed to talk to potential users - let me know if you want any.

#2 -- Excellent question. This hasn't happened yet (again, we're still tiny!), but -- in theory -- here is our policy: we're communicating with almost every user personally and following every single transaction. We will evaluate each transaction based on the intentions: for example, if it seemed like someone is trying to rip the other off, that's very different than an accident happening. Also, we follow both common sense (ie, even if you don't specifically say "the product must work", it is implied that the product must be functional and work!). You might want to read our Terms & Conditions page -- I hate legalese and I purposely wrote it to be in simple, clear, understandable English to know exactly what we pledge ourselves to!

Note: a few users have been sketchy (someone tried to buy aderall, which you need a prescription to buy!) so we canceled their accounts. Anyone who we judge to be risky can not be a member!

#3 -- We are an American corporation and complying with all legal requirements in the USA; the company is based in Oregon, our bank account (where we store all the money) is in Oregon as well, and Oregon is the court for any disputes. I would dispute the characterization that the entire point is the "skirt local import regs": we make it very clear on the site that it's important that all users must comply with all legal regulations on both side. This would be analogous to Craig's List: yes, people use it for prostitution and other illegal things - but those ones are quickly canceled! We cancel illegal ones as well.

I'd love to build trust by meeting you in person and having a coffee with you. Are you now in BA? If not, I'd love to chat or have a phone call with you! (And same for anyone else here who is interested in the project!).

Another recommendation: a standard risk minimization technique is to *start small*. If you trust us a little bit, but not a lot, then you might want to Buy or Mule something small. If that works well, then next time, something bigger; then bigger; and so on. I understand that trust needs to be built slowly, over time. It's the only way.

Also: every Tuesday night, our team meets for a drink at a Bar (where also, Mules and Buyers do exchanges as well - so they can do exchanges with us watching to double check it all goes well!) in Las Can~itas that we love, The Office (on the corner of Arevalo and Arce). We'll be there after 9pm tonight and every Tuesday. Stop by tonight - ask anyone for Morgan, they all know me there! You are all invited, drinks on me Well, at least one drink!

Any more questions? Also you or anyone should send me a PM if you want to!

morgan

 

[sesamosinsal]

MorganF, I've been very busy in the past several weeks, and I've not had a chance to respond to your message. I do admire that you're reaching out to people as you've done here. I think that's great. I like your idea, but I'm concerned that the website could get itself involved in a legal mess if it becomes too popular.

It is illegal to bring products into Argentina for commercial purposes. I would agree with you that your liability would be zero if you were just allowing people to agree to deal products on the web and were completely oblivious to it. However, you are facilitating the financial transaction. That makes you liable in some way.

When Craigslist discovers an ad for prostitution, they delete it. They don't facilitate payment either. In the case of the file sharing websites based in the United States, they are obligated to remove illegal files upon being notified about them. The idea is that what the website owners don't know about can't hurt them.

The Mule Pool cannot claim ignorance as it holds the money. Most importantly, the Mule Pool must know that the AFIP is pretty clear on this point: "Qué no se puede llevar ni ingresar como equipaje: Ningún tipo de mercadería con finalidad comercial o industrial" This means that travelers on commercial jets cannot legally bring products acquired from abroad and sell them. Not even a bag of peanuts.

As I said, personally, I think the idea in itself is fantastic, and I despise the asinine restrictions on imported goods in this country. Again, I'm just concerned that it could result in legal trouble for you and the others involved.

 

[citygirl]

I think the key point is commercial or industrial. The mule pool has or should have (sorry, haven't read through the site) buyers sign something saying the item is for his/her personal use. Which would skirt the AFIP restrictions.

Agreed, it is a very fine line & I hope Morgan and the company have a good lawyer on their payroll

I think it's a great idea - kudos to you. Hmmm.. maybe I should post an ad for peanut butter!

 

[MorganF]

@BradlyHale -- Thanks for the kind words about my reaching out (I think the only way to build anything is one person at a time, one by one... I'm probably naive in that but it's my approach - plus it's fun to meet new people! Hahaha).

On your advice: thanks for the advice, it's excellent. We've thought a lot about this, have a bunch of seriously amazing lawyers in Argentina, and are not concerned about this much, because we think we can deal with it well and we have a looong way to go before this is even an issue, we're a tiny little spec now. I'll also point out, our corporation and bank (where everything is kept in escrow) are in the USA *and the financial transaction happens in the USA as well* (via Paypal). I appreciate your constructive business advice, thanks -- and please remember that this is one factor that we're on top of and handling!

Now, I just got to the bar the Office for our weekly Meetup - you guys should come by! They're playing an awesome INXS concert, projecting it outside onto the wall - it's great! Wow, I haven't heard "Guns in the Sky" since I was about a sophomore in high school Hahaha. Hmmm I wonder if anyone will show up, anyone happen to be in Las Can~itas?

morgan

 

[ben]

Morgan, thank you for your insightful posting. I share the sentiment that from the point of view of Argentine law/policy (which I have little sympathy or patience for, but just saying), this would be a service more comparable to LimeWire than Craigslist, because though you can "make it very clear on the site that it's important that all users must comply with all legal regulations on both side", were this to actually happen, viz. that mules would declare at the airport what they are bringing in, state the true value, and pay applicable duties (isn't it 50%?), the site would quickly lose it's raison d'etre. So it's much harder to feign adherence to "all legal regulations on both side" when users actually following the rules on this side would kill the business model. That's not Craigslist, that's Limewire.

(again, to be clear: I am not comparing the business itself - facilitating illegal file-sharing vs. bypassing government-sponsored highway robbery - but just the validity of the "we say clearly everything's got to be legal" argument).

On the other hand, since everything is based, hosted, and all the money changes hands outside the country, there's very little they can do, short of monitoring people's Internet communication (are they allowed to/capable of as much?).

And yes, I noticed the T&C in English where normally there would be legalese. In general the site looks quite thought-out. And the idea was just begging to happen. So here's to your success!

 

[Brucemj]

Hey Ben,

I have used Mule Pool as a Mule for a number of Mule Pool people and LOVE the company. It worked perfectly for me. The fact that they escrow the money before the Mule buys the item ensures the Mule is protected and the fact that the money is paid only after all parties are happy adds to the protections.

I have met Morgan and several others from Mule Pool and find they are fiercely determine to protect all parties.

Morgan plans to integrate a rating system for both buyers and Mules similar to Amazon or eBay. This is a great idea and eventually it will significantly increase the sense of security for all parties involved.

If I ever do have an unethical buyer I can just take the item back to the States and return the item. Might be a slight inconvenience but, IMO, an insignificant likelihood and inconvenience.

You can also PM me if you have further questions.

Suerte
Bruce