This Would Not Happen In Argentina

[camberiu]

That amounts to option #1 above - blanket exception for terror, into which just about anything can be made to fit. That's not what I'm saying.

What I am saying is that if the limits on law enforcement are too onerous then those limits will be skirted at some point. That isn't too great either. The only way around that is to have edge cases which are clearly defined, and that have a mechanism for oversight built in.

Due process is oversight. That is the whole point of due process. You can't skip due process and have oversight at the same time, which is what you are proposing (or trying to propose). Skipping due process is by definition scuttling oversight. It is allowing the prosecutor, the jury and the judge to become the same person or entity. And even with all the oversight we have today, the system is already highly fallible, manipulable and biased, imagine when you skirt around it. The potential for abuse grows exponentially.

The system we have today of innocent until proven guilty, of not allowing torture, of requiring a lawyer to be present, was not created in the luxury of a realm free of terrorism and fear and just for shits and giggles. it was created in the mist of all of that, because thousands of years of trial and error has shown that once you deviate from that, you create a monster much more terrible, frighting and destructive than the terrorists that you are trying to fight against. That is why Ben Franklin wrote that those who trade freedom for security shall have neither. That is the crux of his argument: That once you skirt around the process, once you make someone's rights conditional and relative, instead of absolute, the egg of the serpent materializes. You have started to go down into the path of damnation. What we have today is the MINIMUM level of oversight that our civilization has been able to come up with and yet have a resemblance of a fair justice system. There is no way to "streamline" that further and not open the floodgates to widespread injustice and abuse.
Freedom and justice are not just ends, they are also means. You cannot achieve a just and free society by denying people justice and freedom, no matter how scared you might be. Once you go down that path, no matter how well intentioned or reasonable you might sound, it is over.

 

[Pensador]

This Would Not Happen In Argentina


LOL wanna bet? Not that your post in not enlightening. But this can happen anywhere I am sure now days.

 

[Matt84]

 

[camberiu]

This video was recorded last week in Pasco, Washington State. There, you can see the Pasco Police summarily executing an unarmed man for throwing rocks at them.


http://youtu.be/y-0uqFTBclo

 

[sleslie23]

This video was recorded last week in Pasco, Washington State. There, you can see the Pasco Police summarily executing an unarmed man for throwing rocks at them.

This is just one recent example of many.

 

[TWB103]

Police/military brutality and dodgy judiciarys have always existed and always will. White cops still shoot black teenagers but I bet far more black people died in dodgy circumstances with the police in the 50s for example. Techonolgy and our increasing awareness of social justice/injustice make it seem things are worse than they are in context.

 

[camberiu]

This Would Not Happen In Argentina


LOL wanna bet? Not that your post in not enlightening. But this can happen anywhere I am sure now days.

Police abuse can and does happen anywhere. The difference is that public opinion and higher authorities in Argentina, for example, act very swiftly when the police is caught in the act and arrests are made. In the USA, they get at most a paid suspension.

Argentine police officers accused of torture that appears on video
"[background=rgb(254, 254, 254)]The video prompted a swift reaction from Argentine authorities. Eduardo Sylvester, security minister in Salta province, asked a judge to issue arrest warrants against the police officers accused of being involved in the incident, according to Telam, Argentina's state news agency. Five officers were arrested Thursday night, the agency said.[/background]
[background=rgb(254, 254, 254)]On Friday, a sixth officer was arrested, said a police official who asked not to be identified because he wasn't authorized to talk to the media."[/background]

[background=rgb(254, 254, 254)](...)[/background]

[background=rgb(254, 254, 254)]"[/background]Argentines are especially sensitive to police and military brutality. It is estimated as many as 30,000 people were killed or disappeared during the country's military dictatorship, the period known as the Dirty War, which lasted from 1976 until 1983."

Learning the hard way that once you give up your rights to fight terrorism, you end up dealing with a much worse devil.

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[wild_horses]

Kamberiu

 

[ajoknoblauch]

I think that they are changing the political system from a righ-wing populism to extreme-neoliberal (latin america alike: market and wealth for a few).

The only way to make it happends is with a very strong social control.

Scary...

In 30 years common people is going to be as wealthy as they are in Argentina.

You mean, in 30 years common people are going to be as poor as they are in Argentina.