US disparity in wealth akin to banana republic

jaredwb said:
Once again, poor "workers" and evil rich. THE WORLD IS NOT FAIR!!!

So what if the rich make 1000 times more than the average worker...SO WHAT!!

The U.S. isn't about fairness, it is about providing a system of OPPORTUNITY! And before you cry about the system is broken, blah blah blah...bullshit!

ANYONE that WORKS, and I mean WORKS (not sits around and cries about the world being unfair or the rich being evil or taking govt handouts) has the opportunity to become rich. Period! End of story!

For example, people that sit around for 99 weeks...99 F'IN WEEKS taking unemployment payments...they don't deserve to be rich and they sure as hell don't deserve the same opportunities as someone who busted their ass looking for ANY type of job. And though they DON'T DESERVE it, the opportunity WAS there for them..they just CHOSE not to take advantage of it.

DUDE, you MUST cut back on the super strong BREW (coffee), you're gonna have a stroke or somethin'. Just chill, my personal advice is to put on some super extended live GRATEFUL DEAD jams on the sound system while you smoke some herb (or take some blue valium) Relax mi amigo.... for your health, Dr. Dudester
 
bigbadwolf said:
Seems like you want to have your cake and eat it too. Typical of American liberals -- to want to mitigate the egregious excesses of a system that is inherently predatory and cannot be reformed. Might as well try to make a vegetarian out of a tiger. Capitalism is about capital accumulation -- this by itself yields economic disparities that eventually translate into disparities in political power. The system itself is a roller-coaster ride of booms and bust, prone to crises. Either be for it or against it. Not talking out of both sides of your mouth.

For roughly three decades after WW2, US capitalism was strong enough to reach a modus vivendi with a chunk of the American population. That's where the "middle class" came from. Those days are irretrievably in the past. US capitalism is in a state of deepening crisis. The disparities are a consequence of this, not a root cause. In other words, restoring progressive taxation will not seriously mitigate USA's economic crisis.

Unlike you, I believe that the capitalist economic system can be managed to make it just. The way to do so is through a progressive tax system that requires those who earn a lot to contribute a large percentage of their earnings to the state for the public benefit.

I disagree with your description of all capitalist societies as necessarily "predatory." Yes, capitalism seeks to harness man's inate desire to acquire wealth for selfish, personal well being in contrast with communism's nobler philosophy of "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." Unfortunately, the problem with communism is that while it's theoretically more humane, in practice it simply doesn't work. Witness, the failure of the Soviet experiment. China's economy didn't begin to excel until a large measure of entreprenurial capitalism was permitted to coexist with state ownership of industries.

All economic models are a blend of private enterprise and state managed programs, e.g. socialized medicine, old age retirement benefits, state funded schools, municipal services, public utilities, housing, and transportation, etc. Where any particular society falls on the spectrum of private/public ownership varies according to the philosophy of that particular society which is commonly traced to the popular election of government, a process which you unpersuasively malign. For example, there is a greater degree of state participation in the economies of countries like Norway, Sweden, France so that they may be described as more socialistic than the US. To my knowledge, no pure communist society has successfully endured.

You concede that following WWII capitalism created an upwardly mobile middle class, but decree those days are irretrievably gone. Why? I agree the US is suffering a financial crisis caused by excesses in the financial/banking system and wasteful, illegitimate wars ( Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan), however, I have not abandoned all hope that the US can recover. After all, the creation of the middle class to which you refer with which capitalism reached a "modus vivendi" came into existence following a depression worse than what we are experiencing today.

Along with many other Americans I was enthusiastic when Obama was elected President. Unfortunately, "change you can believe in" and "yes we can" seem to have devolved into more of the same "business as usual" nonsense on both the domestic and foreign policy fronts. I agree the outlook is dim, but believe (perhaps optimistically) it is not yet time to draw the curtain on capitalism or the USA. Moreover, if the bottom should drop out of the US economy and with it the economies of most of the world, what do you think will resurrect them? Communism? I doubt it.

p.s. I don't think it is accurate to criticize me for either "wanting to have my cake and eat it too" or "talking out of both sides of my mouth" simply because I acknowledge the nobler philosophical basis of communisim while maintaining that in practice it is not yet a viable system.
 
darmanad said:
I disagree with your description of all capitalist societies as necessarily "predatory." Yes, capitalism seeks to harness man's inate desire to acquire wealth for selfish,

if the bottom should drop out of the US economy and with it the economies of most of the world, what do you think will resurrect them? Communism? I doubt it.

I acknowledge the nobler philosophical basis of communisim while maintaining that in practice it is not yet a viable system.

Absolutely agree.

Capitalism just harnesses some of our innate desires, as you say.

So, it will not work now because we have decided as a society that it is ok, and even admirable, to behave like children hoarding their toys.

Just ask Jesus, communism is nothing more than sharing.

You could look it up!

PS We will change one day, I would think.
 
JoeBlow said:
Gotta think about it, talk about it and work towards it.
If you're not with us you're against us.
That is the purpose of government, to wit, to enact laws that provide for a greater degree of social justice so that the toys are shared more fairly in accordance with Judeo-Christian ethics. Until such time as human beings attain a Christ-like psyche whereby they can truly treat others as they would like to be treated, can work hard for the benefit of their neighbor just as if it were for their own benefit, can voluntarily give away a great portion of their toys so that others can play and have fun somewhat equally, the enlightened society will adopt a progressive tax system. Such a system should not be designed so as to negate man's desire to accumulate personal wealth, but , as I said above, no person should have 2 Rolls Royces until everyone has a bicycle.
 
darmanad said:
That is the purpose of government, to wit, to enact laws that provide for a greater degree of social justice so that the toys are shared more fairly in accordance with Judeo-Christian ethics. Until such time as human beings attain a Christ-like psyche whereby they can truly treat others as they would like to be treated, can work hard for the benefit of their neighbor just as if it were for their own benefit, can voluntarily give away a great portion of their toys so that others can play and have fun somewhat equally, the enlightened society will adopt a progressive tax system. Such a system should not be designed so as to negate man's desire to accumulate personal wealth, but , as I said above, no person should have 2 Rolls Royces until everyone has a bicycle.


This is a good post for a Sunday morning. I feel like I've just been to church.

Thank you for providing your divinely inspired definition of the purpose of government, which, until people become (altruistic) selfless enough shall be to provide social justice (the redistribution of wealth) rather than the protection of individual rights (including owning as many Rolls Royces as anyone who has created enough wealth can buy).

So much for Jay Leno's car collection.

Al Sharpton: We Won't Have True Social Justice Until Everything is Equal in Everybody's House

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95bcEb1rV18

There are lot's of folks in the USA who don't have a either a car or a bicycle and there are many who have two of each. Will social justice be achieved if they are redistributed? I'm sure there are also many who have two flat screen TV's and even more who only have one tube type TV or (God forbid) none at all! Until everyone has rabbit ears perhaps no one should have cable.

Working hard for the benefit of their neighbor just as if it were for their own benefit, voluntarily giving away a "great portion of their toys so that others can play and have fun somewhat equally" may be a Christian concept, but it wasn't the founding principle of the US government.

The US government was not founded on the principle of altruism. It was founded on the principle of individual rights.
 
steveinbsas said:
This is a good post for a Sunday morning. I feel like I've just been to church.

Thank you for providing your divinely inspired definition of the purpose of government, which, until people become (altruistic) selfless enough shall be to provide social justice (the redistribution of wealth) rather than the protection of individual rights (including owning as many Rolls Royces as anyone who has created enough wealth can buy).

So much for Jay Leno's car collection.

Al Sharpton: We Won't Have True Social Justice Until Everything is Equal in Everybody's House

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95bcEb1rV18

There are lot's of folks in the USA who don't have a either a car or a bicycle and there are many who have two of each. Will social justice be achieved if they are redistributed? I'm sure there are also many who have two flat screen TV's and even more who only have one tube type TV or (God forbid) none at all! Until everyone has rabbit ears perhaps no one should have cable.

Working hard for the benefit of their neighbor just as if it were for their own benefit, voluntarily giving away a "great portion of their toys so that others can play and have fun somewhat equally" may be a Christian concept, but it wasn't the founding principle of the US government.

The US government was not founded on the principle of altruism. It was founded on the principle of individual rights.

Steve, I suspect this is this just another one of your posts written for the express purpose of generating controversy (aka trolling). On other threads you have admitted to such conduct, even if though such an admission was later edited out. It appears you really aren't interested in serious political debate because on other threads you have refused to engage in debate specifically ignoring several requests to state your opinions on the issues. I guess it's less taxing simply to joke around and poke fun at others. That's your prerogative, but before you do that, you should at least make the effort to comprehend what others are saying. Because you have misunderstood the clear import of my words, your criticism is not well focused. Nevertheless, as I have time on my hands, I will reply seriously to you.


First, unlike one interpretation of the Sharpton message you linked, I did not propose that ideal tax policy or any other policy be engineered so as to make all persons equally wealthy. People of good faith can disagree on the exact parameters of a healthy wealth distribution and the tax system to realize it. My analogy about all persons having a bicycle before anyone has 2 Rolls Royces is a simply a way of setting forth the idea that everyone's basic needs should be considered before allowing some to accumulate excess. It's just a manner of speech, Steve.

Second, as for the founding principles of the USA being based upon individual rights and not altruism, I submit that individual rights and altruism are not mutually exclusive. I feel sorry for you or anyone that believes altruism is not a laudable goal. Being altruistic doesn't neccesarily mean wanting everyone to have equal wealth. In a simple sense it just means not being selfish (or being selfless ala the Golden Rule). Modest altruism is an expression of enlightened self interest /individual rights. Its been too long since I studied Locke, Rousseau et al, but didnt they speak to that issue. Ultimately, it's prudent on the part of the very wealthy to avoid a system that allows for great disparity in wealth distribution. At some point they will suffer from the meltdown of society and /or the masses will shout and act upon "off with their heads."

In an enlightened society wealth need not be distributed equally. Society should aim for equal opportunity. For any number of reasons, some of us will have greater success than others. I'm all for allowing that. No system should suppress man's inate desire to succeed for personal gain. That, in turn, should maximize the production of goods and services. But there has to be some limits. That's all I'm saying. Nothing controversial. Nothing overly sanctimonious either.
 
Not overly sanctimonious, but not quite up to the standards of a good preacher; more like a condescending Sunday school teacher who gets to call me by name and wants to put me in my place in front of the rest of the kids.

Why don't you put a real name and face to your posts, too?

I meant every word of my post that you quoted. You want me to debate but you have also ordered me not to post. You have also called me stupid and anti-intellectual.

Here's an expression I don't think I've ever used in my life:

Go to hell.
 
Gee whiz, Steve. You make me feel a little like Hannibal Lector, capable of agitating Miggs verbally to the point of suicide. What have I written that is untrue or unfair to you that has agitated you so?

It's becoming a bit difficult to sort out what you intend to mean. I think you accuse me of being condescending towards you. Not sure condescending is accurate. I might say "harshly critical" and that may be true given some of your odd postings, e.g. on Beck/Soros in the Leaving America thread in the Newcomers forum, your mindless patter about Obama and the Republican Congress in the Should Obama Be Impeached thread in the World Politics forum, your refusal to clarify your position thereat, your obfuscation about death panels and Paul Krugman in the Obamacare thread in World Politics and now here where you mocked me for being preachy, but obviously misunderstood my position.

I can't help it if you have been made to feel like a Sunday School pupil who has been put in his place in front of the other kids. What's wrong with being put in your proper place? And what on earth does the type of icon I use -with or without a photo or real name - have to do with anything? Let's stick to substance.

I don't doubt you meant every word of what you said in response to my posts about government and specifically a progessive income tax, but my point was that you failed to comprehend the clear import of my words. That undermines the validity of your criticism.
You supposed I favored a tax system that would result in equal wealth for all (ala the Sharpton piece). Your sarcasm about differential car, bicycle, TV ownership and social injustice also demonstrated you simply missed the point. Accordingly, I tried to restate my position more clearly. I can't help it if you found it offensive because my clarification pointed out your misconceptions. Nor do I feel any need to apologize for arguing that altruism and a progressive income tax are not contrary to the principles upon which the US was founded. The Declaration of Independence and original U.S.Constitution condoned slavery and second class status for women. Things change as society evolves. A progressive income tax is necessary to achieve a just capitalist society.

p.s. I haven't ordered you to do anything. I have suggested you ought to limit your silly contributions like those which endorsed Beck's take on Soros and argued Krugman supports death panels.
p.p.s. It would be more accurate to say that I described anyone, not just you, who was a Glenn Beck devotee as anti-intellectual. Glenn Beck is info entertainment.
p.p.p.s. I'll take the high road in re your "go to hell" jibe. Despite our differences on political issues, I suspect we share some common areas including a compatible sense of humor.
p.p.p.p.s. More on altruism from an older post...http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com...ble/?th&emc=th
 
Back
Top