What If British Win 1807 Invasion Of Buenos Aires?

[camberiu]

I find the ignorance of Brasilian history in Argentina is particularly alarming. I believe Uruguayans are more concerned about it, but cannot prove it.

To be fair, the ignorance is mutual. Our schools cover Argentina history very superficially, more focused on the massacre of the mapuches, on how they aligned with Nazi germany and a little bit on Peron. That is pretty much it. Even their participation of the Paraguayan war is hardly mentioned at all.

The history of Argentina we learn in Brazilian schools can be summarized like this: "A bunch of racist Italians who speak Spanish but think they are French, and aspired to conquer South America." That is it.

 

[Matt84]

Sorry, but as a Texan, I have to step in here. Texas was a country...not Utah, not California. The only other state in the US that can claim the distinction of sovereign status is Hawaii, which was never actually ratified as a nation. Just saying...

You're 100% right about Texas, and I don't doubt you didn't failed to understand the point about California and Deseret, but your attitude towards Hawaiians is extremely Imperialistic!
A nation is defined as a group of people sharing language, history (gypsy nation, russian tatar nation, etc) and sometimes also territory (Luxembourgish nation), etc,
the Hawaiian kingdom(s) used to be a singl offshoot of the same Polynesian people living in the same islands of the most isolated archipelago on Earth. That's a nation state if there ever was one!

As for international law, at the time of His Majesty Kamehameha the first, the Kingdom of Hawaii and The United Provinces of the River Plate, the direct predecessor of your adopted nation state, recognized each other as free and sovereign states (Captain Hipolito Bouchard signed the treaty in 1817 or 1818).
Hawaii is more of a nation than Belgium!

So just to clarify the point to accidental bystanders, what you call "never ratified as a nation" actually means,
relinquish your islands or we'll bombed the sh*t out of them, mindf*kd tem with 1800s new age apocalyptic pseudo-christian american cults, and finally fully colonize them, use them as a human shield against competitors in East Asia, and then grant them statehood and send the continent's extra homeless population to reduce heating bills in shelters.

"Ua Mau ke Ea o ka ʻĀina i ka Pono"

 

[Matt84]

To be fair, the ignorance is mutual. Our schools cover Argentina history very superficially, more focused on the massacre of the mapuches, on how they aligned with Nazi germany and a little bit on Peron. That is pretty much it. Even their participation of the Paraguayan war is hardly mentioned at all.

The history if Argentina we learn in Brazilian schools can be summarized like this: "A bunch of racist Italians who speak Spanish but think they are French, and aspired to conquer South America." That is it.

Argentina sided with the allies after remaining neutral for most of the war. It never aligned with Nazi Germany. Sweden and Spain did in a way... at least more so than Argentina, unless you can prove the opposite. That's a very "you're either with us or against us" kind of attitude. Aa a lover, not a fighter, I don't like that attitude.

When did Argentina aspired to conquer the continent? Argentina has been losing its northern borders since its inception, giving out territories voluntarily to Chile, Bolivia. It relinquished the eastern part of misiones to santa catarina.
the only parts that argentina "Expanded" to were the loosely defined areas of chaco and patagonia, where they continue relinquishing territory to the Chileans way into the 80s.

If one looks at historic maps one can see the United Provinces and Argentina reducing in size and only buildings some cities in the already claimed but unsettled areas of patagonia and chaco (while relinquishing half of it to paraguay and chile) On the contrary we see the Brasilian polity expand westwards upon Spanish-claimed land well into states that the real Brasilian population don't even know exist, or don't believe they actually exist, like Acre.

Where does that myth of continental conquer come from? displaced imperialistic guilt?

 

[camberiu]

Argentina sided with the allies after remaining neutral for most of the war. It never aligned with Nazi Germany. Sweden and Spain did in a way... at least more so than Argentina, unless you can prove the opposite. That's a very "you're either with us or against us" kind of attitude. Aa a lover, not a fighter, I don't like that attitude.

It was never an overt support, but it is believed that the German U-boats that ravaged the Brazilian coast during WWII (which eventually forced Brazil to join the war) would refuel and resupply in Argentina. The images of Nazi celebrations in Luna park during the 30s an 40s did very little to reduce those suspicions. As did the U-530 incident.

When did Argentina aspired to conquer the continent?
Where does that myth of continental conquer come from?

The massive military buildup started by Peron, which they were never able to justify to the Brazilian diplomats despite repeated inquires. Here some examples:

- The acquisition 100+ jet fighters from the UK, when the rest of South America PUT TOGETHER, could not field 100 propeller fighter aircraft.
- The purchase of long range strategic bombers Avro Lancaster, which gave Argentina the ability to strike industrial parts of Brazil. Such type of weapons was inexistent in the region until that point.
- The creation of a domestically designed and built jet fighter, the Pulqui II for the dismay of the Brazilian government.

https://youtu.be/menmyQ7FSAQ

- The acquisition of an aircraft carrier (ARA Independencia) which gave Argentina the ability to project force and strike anywhere in the Brazilian coast. Up to that point, no such weapon platform existed in the region.
- The first military nuclear missile program in South America (Condor and Alacran), with the purpose of delivering a nuclear warhead as far north as Brasilia. Up to that point, no country in South America was trying to develop a nuclear missile program.
- The development of the TR-1700 submarine program. They are largest non-nuclear submarines ever built. Up to that point, no South American country had such military programs.
- The development of the TAM (Tanque Argentino Mediano), a main battle tank domestically built and designed for use primarily in the flat pampas, the exact area in between Brazil and Argentina.

Now imagine that you are a country composed mostly of mixed race people, seeing your openly racist neighbour, who has long publicly claimed cultural and ethnic superiority, arming themselves to the teeth for no reason, and that condescendingly denies doing so when asked about it. How would you interpret that?

 

[Matt84]

Why would any Italian desire to be French?
Do you know what MAFIA is an acronym for?

Another priceless post. You forgot to mention the Pulqui jet was designed by a German war refugee and the Nuclear program started by an Austrian war refugee.

I can see your point but let's be fair, all those weapons stockpiled and built by Rosas the Second's administration were never used against Brasil, only against himself, when the anglo-american-oiled Air force bombed downtown Buenos Aires at noon on a weekday.

in 1944 Brasilian troops invaded (with all that entails) the coasts of Europe. Up until that point no South American nation had ever been coopted into performing a transcontinental invasion. Perhaps seeing a neighbor becoming an aggressive and succesful partner in an alliance of Global Domination explains in part why Argentina's armed forces felt the need to arm the country?

 

[camberiu]

I can see your point but let's be fair, all those weapons stockpiled and built by Rosas the Second's administration were never used against Brasil, only against himself, when the anglo-american-oiled Air force bombed downtown Buenos Aires at noon on a weekday.

Sure, they were never used against Brazil. But I think it it was more due to lack of political decisiveness than anything else. Those weapons were being bought for a reason, and it was not for self defense, as no country threatened Argentina. Also, Brazil was not standing still. The creation of EMBRAER and several military programs, the change of the national capital from Rio de Janeiro to Brasilia and the push for rapid industrialization were all responses to the Argentine threat. By the late 1970s, the balance of power in the region had shifted and Brazil was the industrial and technological leader in the region, and the idea of a direct war was replaced with the mutual assured destruction concept.

 

[camberiu]

in 1944 Brasilian troops invaded (with all that entails) the coasts of Europe. Up until that point no South American nation had ever been coopted into performing a transcontinental invasion. Perhaps seeing a neighbor becoming an aggressive and succesful partner in an alliance of Global Domination explains in part why Argentina's armed forces felt the need to arm the country?

The participation in the European campaign was a response to the German sinking of dozens Brazilian merchant vessels (no Argentine vessels was sunk, btw). Also, the military buildup was done in such a scale that there is no way you can claim it was for self defense. You don;t buy more jet fighters than all the air forces in south America put together as a mean of self defense. When you worry about self defense, you build a military that is just big enough to make a foreign invasion too costly. Argentina was building a military that dwarfed all of the neighbouring countries put together. That is not the action of a country that is concerned about self defense.

 

[Matt84]

By the late 1970s, the balance of power in the region had shifted and Brazil was the industrial and technological leader in the region, and the idea of a direct war was replaced with the mutual assured destruction concept.

Are you saying there were expansionist plans for Argentina? Self defense means power balance, that's why peaceful countries with no expansionist plans buy weapons.

How would the mutual destruction come to be? Brasil had no nuclear weapons capabilities, as far as I know the total destruction threat Brasil posed was opening the dams upriver. Or were they going to send the FEB en mass with American support to continue what they did in Italy?

After witnessing one after another Latin American country be coopted into declaring war to some European countries with no extra-continental ambitions, and Japan (?) for some reason still unknown to South Americans, perhaps Argentina felt the need to buy some weapons to assure that little countries like Peru would not fall prey to an expansion of Acre.

 

[Matt84]

You don;t buy more jet fighters than all the air forces in south America put together as a mean of self defense.

That is very myopic for a country with "BRIC" ambitions, At the time America was considered a single continent, not three, and Argentina was probably attempting to balance the continent, to protect little countries like Peru from the prevailing Diplomatic customs of the time:

 

[camberiu]

Are you saying there were expansionist plans for Argentina? Self defense means power balance, that's why peaceful countries with no expansionist plans buy weapons.

Yes, very much so. And as soon as the Argentine economy collapsed, the entire military buildup in the region came to an abrupt stop. South America is today the most demilitarized continent in the world, because once Argentina stopped buying weapons, everyone else did the exact same thing.

How would the mutual destruction come to be? Brasil had no nuclear weapons capabilities, as far as I know the total destruction threat Brasil posed was opening the dams upriver.

Brazil was very much forced to quickly develop a nuclear program. The nuclear warhead program was called project Aramar and the missile program was called VLS. The nuclear warhead itself was never finished, but the entire technology was there, including the weapons grade uranium enrichment process. Once the ABACC treaty was signed Brazil scuddle its warhead and the VLS was converted into satellite launcher.

After witnessing one after another Latin American country be coopted into declaring war to some European countries with no extra-continental ambitions, and Japan (?) for some reason still unknown to South Americans, perhaps Argentina felt the need to buy some weapons to assure that little countries like Peru would not fall prey to an expansion of Acre.

That is the kind of non-sensical reasoning that Argentina would give. Today their military is non-existent and no one is invading them, or Peru, or anywhere in the region. They were driving the arms race in Latin America, and once their economy died, the arms race died with it.