What If British Win 1807 Invasion Of Buenos Aires?

[yd_mtl]

camberiu as usual has managed to sabotage a thread and made it into something about Brazil or is this RioExPats forum now?

I think, frankly, that this thread has strayed quite far from my original question. For those of you who know a lot about the history of the Rio de la Plata (esp. in the early 1800s, like with the 1806-07 British invasions), my real question is: Would a British Uruguay alongside an independent Argentina (north of Patagonia) with even more British influence than in real life (possibly a British Patagonia added) have been more realistic, given the circumstances surrounding the 1806-07 invasions and their aftermath, than the whole of Argentina (plus Uruguay) becoming British over the long term?

 

[Matt84]

I think, frankly, that this thread has strayed quite far from my original question. For those of you who know a lot about the history of the Rio de la Plata (esp. in the early 1800s, like with the 1806-07 British invasions), my real question is: Would a British Uruguay alongside an independent Argentina (north of Patagonia) with even more British influence than in real life (possibly a British Patagonia added) have been more realistic, given the circumstances surrounding the 1806-07 invasions and their aftermath, than the whole of Argentina (plus Uruguay) becoming British over the long term?

No it would have been a very difficult situation for many reasons:
1) look at the non English speaking, yet relgiously reformed, population in South Africa after that SAME invasion turned the Cape Colony British? It took a century and concentration camps to achieve peace. Or look at Quebec and how to this day divides Anglo Canada in two?

2) 1807 is in the context of the Napoleonic Wars. A British Plate Colony (with Patagonia included) makes for a beautiful dream - believe me I've explored it, but from London's perspective it would have been a defeatist or small-minded plan compared to the prospect of liberating the entire Spanish Empire in the Americas to Free (British) Trade.

3) The biggest potential for a British "Crown" Colony in the Southern Hemisphere was already just beginning to be mapped, and very slowly colonized, settled, built, a process that I believe is ongoing.

 

[yd_mtl]

No it would have been a very difficult situation for two reasons:
1) look at the non English speaking, yet relgiously reformed, population in South Africa after that SAME invasion turned the Cape Colony British? It took a century and concentration camps to achieve peace. Or look at Quebec and how to this day divides Anglo Canada in two?

2) 1807 is in the context of the Napoleonic Wars. A British Plate Colony (with Patagonia included) makes for a beautiful dream - believe me I've explored it, but from London's perspective it would have been a defeatist or small-minded plan compared to the prospect of liberating the entire Spanish Empire in the Americas to Free (British) Trade.

But perhaps London would have realized, rather quickly, that Montevideo is significantly more strategic than Buenos Aires (e.g. better harbour, between the arch-rivals Buenos Aires and Brazil), and it just might be worth it for the British to endeavour to keep at least Montevideo (if not Buenos Aires) British-ruled - even as the rest of the South American ports benefit from British trade but otherwise become independent. Uruguay could be split into Anglo and Hispanic sectors, just like Canada (English and French) and South Africa (English and Afrikaans).

Furthermore, China (just like Latin America) was an area of European informal empires, and yet Hong Kong was a *formal* British possession (up until 1997).

 

[Matt84]

But perhaps London would have realized, rather quickly, that Montevideo is significantly more strategic than Buenos Aires (e.g. better harbour, between the arch-rivals Buenos Aires and Brazil), and it just might be worth it for the British to endeavour to keep at least Montevideo (if not Buenos Aires) British-ruled - even as the rest of the South American ports benefit from British trade but otherwise become independent. Uruguay could be split into Anglo and Hispanic sectors, just like Canada (English and French) and South Africa (English and Afrikaans).

In a way that's precisely what happened. Buenos Aires was invaded by the British from Montevideo which rested under benign British control for far longer. The peaceful creation of the state of Uruguay as a proxy British buffer state like Belgium is also traditionally seen as an open secret in either bank of the River Plate.

After the emancipation of Hispanic Latin America, when the tides turned against the British (like Rosas' dictatorship), the Protestants, the free thinkers, the traders, and those who by chance fell out of the dictators' favor, would seek refuge in Montevideo - or else hung in Plaza de Mayo.
The same phenomenon occurred during Peron's presidency - minus the hangings.

 

[thorsten]

Peron liked Mussolinis experience, never heard of his sympathy for the nazis.

That's what you learn in the history classes here? It's like saying "never heard that the pope is catholic"...

 

[wineguy999]

Peron liked Mussolinis experience, never heard of his sympathy for the nazis.

Sorry, but are you uninformed, or naive? Mussolini taught Hitler about National Socialism - Hitler only perfected it.

 

[Matt84]

Sorry, but are you uninformed, or naive? Mussolini taught Hitler about National Socialism - Hitler only perfected it.

no, he ruined it and forfeited the continent to the Communists. LBJ perfected it. Is that what they teach you in Texan schools that Hidler perfected Fascism?

 

[Matt84]

Furthermore, China (just like Latin America) was an area of European informal empires, and yet Hong Kong was a *formal* British possession (up until 1997).

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I love that idea but the problem is that Latin America differs from China in so many ways, and their "proxy" colonization also differs a lot. In China Europeans did not deign to colonize a superior civilization which only temporarily was lagging behind technologically. Remember how costly was and still is to finance the unification and upgrade of India. In fact Hong Kong's and Macao's progress happened by lack of planning and infrastructure investments and schemes - the opposite as in Australia, Uruguay or Patagonia. In these parts and was no need to have separate outposts. The only exception I can think of is both the creation of Panama and of the Panama Canal Zone where such a need arose, as we see, temporarily.

.What you propose is that Montevideo would be Quebec, and Punta del Este, or the East End, East Point, or Maldonado, would be like Hong Kong.
You provided the perfect history for the scenario I envisioned and actually produced images of, few years back:

 

[yd_mtl]

I love that idea but the problem is that Latin America differs from China in so many ways, and their "proxy" colonization also differs a lot. In China Europeans did not deign to colonize a superior civilization which only temporarily was lagging behind technologically. Remember how costly was and still is to finance the unification and upgrade of India. In fact Hong Kong's and Macao's progress happened by lack of planning and infrastructure investments and schemes - the opposite as in Australia, Uruguay or Patagonia. In these parts and was no need to have separate outposts. The only exception I can think of is both the creation of Panama and of the Panama Canal Zone where such a need arose, as we see, temporarily.

Furthermore, in the 17th and especially 18th and early 19th centuries, tthe British established trading posts in India, Malaya, and parts of West Africa that eventually evolved into much larger British colonies. So, too, at least 1-2 British trading posts in South America could have led to small(ish) British colonies amidst all the newly-independent countries.

What you propose is that Montevideo would be Quebec, and Punta del Este, or the East End, East Point, or Maldonado, would be like Hong Kong.

I wasn't saying that, exactly. Some parts of Uruguay could be a bit more like Quebec, and many others like the rest of Canada.

I suppose that in yet another scenario, you could have a Hong Kong-like (in terms of size, general history, and maybe architecture) British outpost.

 

[wineguy999]

no, he ruined it and forfeited the continent to the Communists. LBJ perfected it. Is that what they teach you in Texan schools that Hidler perfected Fascism?

Exactly. Along with basic spelling and grammar skills.