American Expatriation Guide

[Ries]

There is an interesting dissection of the "renouncement meme" here-
http://www.slate.com/id/2252570

It turns out that there was a slight blip in the numbers last year, up to 700 or so, but mainly due to the IRS sending out a letter reminding people in the process that the renunciation wasnt final til they filed one last form.
Quite the "harrassment".

It also turns out the about half of the people who renounce every year, which has been running between 200 and 500 most years for the last ten or so, are originally foreign citizens, who came to the USA, decided it wasnt for them, and went back home.

NOT political refugees, poor overtaxed Randian supermen, or even conservatives.

Historically, 10% of all immigrants to the USA have returned home after a few years- this has been true going back over 100 years. 10% of the Germans, Irish, and Italians in the first part of the 20th century decided it wasnt the promised land after all.

Currently, the numbers on paper seem to be much LOWER than this- indicating that far from being outraged by the higher taxes, (which, of course, are some of the lowest of all industrialized countries) most immigrants consider moving to the USA still a good deal, overall.
There are probably a fair amount of illegal immigrants to the USA who retire back to their home countries, but that doesnt count as renouncing if you were never legal in the first place, does it?

The numbers of people renouncing are tiny- even at 700, that is less than the margin of error in measuring expats alone, and a tiny tiny percentage of the 300 million american citizens. Its a tiny amount of the estimated 4 million or so american citizens living in foreign countries.

Its just not enough people to mean much of anything, especially if half of em were just going home anyways, after losing a job, getting a divorce, or when their dad got sick.

Certainly, there is a lot wrong with the USA- but statistically, virtually no one thinks its enough to renounce citizenship.

But hey, knock yourself out.

 

[gouchobob]

There is an interesting dissection of the "renouncement meme" here-
http://www.slate.com/id/2252570

It turns out that there was a slight blip in the numbers last year, up to 700 or so, but mainly due to the IRS sending out a letter reminding people in the process that the renunciation wasnt final til they filed one last form.
Quite the "harrassment".

It also turns out the about half of the people who renounce every year, which has been running between 200 and 500 most years for the last ten or so, are originally foreign citizens, who came to the USA, decided it wasnt for them, and went back home.

NOT political refugees, poor overtaxed Randian supermen, or even conservatives.

Historically, 10% of all immigrants to the USA have returned home after a few years- this has been true going back over 100 years. 10% of the Germans, Irish, and Italians in the first part of the 20th century decided it wasnt the promised land after all.

Currently, the numbers on paper seem to be much LOWER than this- indicating that far from being outraged by the higher taxes, (which, of course, are some of the lowest of all industrialized countries) most immigrants consider moving to the USA still a good deal, overall.
There are probably a fair amount of illegal immigrants to the USA who retire back to their home countries, but that doesnt count as renouncing if you were never legal in the first place, does it?

The numbers of people renouncing are tiny- even at 700, that is less than the margin of error in measuring expats alone, and a tiny tiny percentage of the 300 million american citizens. Its a tiny amount of the estimated 4 million or so american citizens living in foreign countries.

Its just not enough people to mean much of anything, especially if half of em were just going home anyways, after losing a job, getting a divorce, or when their dad got sick.

Certainly, there is a lot wrong with the USA- but statistically, virtually no one thinks its enough to renounce citizenship.

But hey, knock yourself out.

Very good post, I agree that there are plenty of problems in the U.S., no place is prefect, it's all relative, but the numbers on immigration into and out of the U.S. speak for themselves, far more convincingly than any argument I or anybody can make.

 

[brandwach]

Some people asked about what I meant in my post. I just noticed a lot of pro-state retoric on the board critiquing the article on expatriation, things like, "oh everybody's got to pay their dues/fair-share" and "don't be greedy" and "we need state to promote the greater good."

I just wanted to put forth that the insitution of state is not needed and that it can't be defended rationally.

State is coercion and agression. These things, according to mundane, and universally accepted morals, are immoral and sociopathic, except people suspend their otherwise consistent moral expectations of others when it come to the instititution.

Theft is theft, enslavement is enslavemet, nevermind the actor.

To stand up for government is to stand up for authoritarianism and agression which are clearly morally bankrupt.

 

[mini]

Some people asked about what I meant in my post. I just noticed a lot of pro-state retoric on the board critiquing the article on expatriation, things like, "oh everybody's got to pay their dues/fair-share" and "don't be greedy" and "we need state to promote the greater good."

I just wanted to put forth that the insitution of state is not needed and that it can't be defended rationally.

State is coercion and agression. These things, according to mundane, and universally accepted morals, are immoral and sociopathic, except people suspend their otherwise consistent moral expectations of others when it come to the instititution.

Theft is theft, enslavement is enslavemet, nevermind the actor.

To stand up for government is to stand up for authoritarianism and agression which are clearly morally bankrupt.

You still didn't answer why would you then decided it was a good idea to voluntarily shackle yourself to a second state. Seems extremely hypocritical to me.

 

[mariposa]

i am with gouchobob on this one and i like the toilet paper idea. all this ranting about not wanting to pay taxes, now THAT's very third world!

 

[brandwach]

I never said that I wanted to gain another citizenship. But, I do see some disadvantages to keeping my US-citizenship.

Anyway, I saw someone call not wanting to pay taxes "thrid-worldish."

There is nothing lowly about wanting relations to be voluntary and free. There is something depraved and uncivilized about supporting authoritarianism and agression against innocent people.

Let others be. That is the civilized/enlightened/liberal/open/worldly position to take. Accpetance and non-agression.!!!!

 

[Choripán]

I never said that I wanted to gain another citizenship. But, I do see some disadvantages to keeping my US-citizenship.

Anyway, I saw someone call not wanting to pay taxes "thrid-worldish."

There is nothing lowly about wanting relations to be voluntary and free. There is something depraved and uncivilized about supporting authoritarianism and agression against innocent people.

Let others be. That is the civilized/enlightened/liberal/open/worldly position to take. Accpetance and non-agression.!!!!

You honesty believe American democracy is authoritarian? Granted, it's far from perfect. But that comment is simply ludicrous. Like so many other conservatives on this forum, you throw around words that you don't understand. I respect the fact that you are not a native English speaker and that this deficit often causes unintended confusion. But I'm pretty sure that like Rad and Lee your problems are conceptual rather than linguistic. Save yourself future humiliation and read Wikipedia's short article on authoritarianism. Note especially the sections that spell out the profound differences between authoritarian and liberal democratic forms of government.

No matter where you live, no matter which government grants you citizenship, you will always pay taxes. To equate taxes and authoritarianism is the dumbest fucking thing I have ever heard in my life - even dumber than Rad's laughable comment that paying taxes somehow turns him into a serf. In addition to not paying taxes, do you walk out of restaurants without paying? Do you shoplift and justify it by claiming that property is theft anyway? Would you be happy if your boss refused to pay you for your labor because he thinks you are authoritarian and aggressive in the workplace? Are you okay with people not paying for what they use in general? Are we all entitled to this expectation of free services at the expense of others? The society you claim to desire would immediately collapse in practice. Think Somalia. Even you and all the other bonehead conservatives clamoring for a stateless society wouldn't want to live in it.

You pay taxes because you consume government services that make your life better in many ways. But apparently you don't like to pay for things you use. This means that you are nothing more than a free-loader who tries to legitimate your selfish lifestyle by making false and inflamatory claims about democratic societies. In other words, you are just another right winger so narrow in mind and selfish in soul that you'll burn the entire house down before you deign to pay the rent.

And then of course you'll turn around and demand that government bail your ass out anyway.

 

[mini]

I never said that I wanted to gain another citizenship. But, I do see some disadvantages to keeping my US-citizenship.

You didn't? Strange, who said the following then?

Hey, I am a US-German Dual Citizen and have both passports. Does anyone else have dual citizenship (excluding one being AR)? And if so, does it make reentering (think perma-tourist) etc easier? Any experiences with dual passports? Thanks, I'd be interested to know.

Hum, interesting, I would be interested in more stories other people have in dealing with the whole dula nationallity thing, as I just found out I have both nationalities and havent used my new german passport since getting it a year ago.

Thanks and best to you all.

 

[citygirl]

As Mini illustrates perfectly - be careful what you put on the internet

 

[brandwach]

Dear Choripan,

I’d like to respond to your post.

Well, yes, I think government in any form in authoritarian, democracy is no exception.

Taxation is authoritarian as it is foisted upon you against your will. Voluntary interactions are not authoritarian. Paying at a restaurant is totally different as I consent to pay there. I may choose to patronize them or not. The issue is consent.

Sex is fine between willing partners, but we call it rape when only one partner is willing and forces the act. Lets face it rape and consensual sex are very similar, but the consent issue makes one evil and the other a very nice thing. I am simply applying that very mundane and universally accepted moral insight non-aggression and mutualism, in a non-discriminatory fashion (ie, Government is not exempt from the requirement to act morally and not aggress against others.), thusly, I condemn taxation and government entirely, as it is force.

Shoplifting is theft and is totally condemnable. Shoplifting is dissimilar from my position and closer to yours as you support taxation which is also theft. My position is deeply respectful of self-ownership and property rights.

But you seem to think we get goods and services from the government and that now we must duly pay for those goods and services. Yes, you are right we get things from government, but you never explicitly agreed to the transaction. I never signed any social contract, did you? If you see such a forced transaction as legit as long as one party gets something for the “fee”, then you’d be ok with me coming over and giving you a paper clip and expecting 50% of your earnings for the rest of your life and that would be ok, because you are getting something from the exchange even though you didn't explicitly agree to the terms. No, no, no,The issue is consent and self-ownership.

Sincerely, you call me close minded and a conservative. Wrong on both counts! I can not imagine that you'd call some one who wants a peace, non-violence, and nonaggression and who condemns aggression as small minded. I mean really! Don't you think that the apologists for aggression and force are the small minded one.

I am interested to hear your response.

Sincerely,

brand