Argentina Ranks 4Th On Cato Institute Misery Index

[ajoknoblauch]

David, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the BAExpats demographic.

From looking at most of the polls and comments here, the posters on this site tend to be far more anti-oficialismo than do most Argentines (notwithstanding whether or not they earn in Blue dollars). For example, I ran a "Peronism and Democracy" poll here that showed that some 90% of the voters thought Peronism was vastly negative for the country. Meanwhile, the Peronists are by far the most popular party in the country. I.e., expats tend to be far less supportive of the government than the natives-- and it's the natives that earn in pesos!

I'm not saying your view of the government is wrong, I'm just saying that you seem to have it backwards when you say "[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]Many Argentines will agree with this, and most expats will not".[/background] The majority opinion here tends to reflect (as one would expect) the interests of expats, who generally are better off financially and live overwhelmingly in the richer areas of Cap Federal. Meanwhile, that is not at all representative of Argentina, as can be seen in the elections here, where barrios like Palermo and Recoleta inevitably vote in the opposite direction of the majority of the country.

I know you've been here a considerable amount of time, and that you've been around the Argentine block more than most expats here, so I don't take it lightly to take issue with something you say, but while I think you're right when you say we expats run the danger of getting trapped in a sort of expat bubble, I think you might have the bubble backwards.

The ones truly trapped in the bubble are the government and their Camporista supporters, who think they can solve the country's problems by doubling down on their failed policies.

 

[ARbound]

I'm one of those people who lives on a solo peso income and my only USD income this year (aside from the ARBound bonanza sale) will be about $200 tax return, if it's
ever changed from "received".

Anyways, I was going to say yes, I think it is true that people here generally have a negative outlook towards the future and watching an Argentine TV series from the late 90's
with my roommate made me very depressed because of how terrible things have gotten since then. Retiro didn't always look like a dump I was surprised to learn.
Also, he has to sell his car now, and saw a video of the state of one of trains on the B or D line and asked me "Is that how they really look?", it was one of the old cars
that are shrink wrapped in yellow covered in graffiti and dilapidated inside.

Certain things are becoming more and more of luxury, for example, getting to eat food that isn't part of the price accord, or brand name products.
Like lacoqueta, I'm depressed every time I go shopping. I pay more and get less, even though my pay has risen by 2K since I moved here.

My roommate bought a 32" 1080p HDTV for about $4,500 in September, the same one now costs $7,000. I know it's not a necessity, but it just goes to show
how if you don't buy dollars on the black market you'll never be able to save, and lastly, it would take 3 people earning my salary to make enough to *possibly*
get a mortgage so you don't have to pay rent anymore and build equity.

As bad as things are thank God I don't have kids or a family here and can leave (when I finally have enough money to), I feel very sorry for those who are stuck.
metaphorically standing on a railroad track with a train in the distance roll faster and faster towards them with nothing to do but watch.

 

[CarryOn]

Anyways, I was going to say yes, I think it is true that people here generally have a negative outlook towards the future and watching an Argentine TV series from the late 90's with my roommate made me very depressed because of how terrible things have gotten since then. Retiro didn't always look like a dump I was surprised to learn.

It is worthwhile to remember that the mid-to-late 1990s economic "boom" was a fiction borne of convertability and cheap credit. It was a paper tiger economy, and when it came to pieces it ruined nearly everyone. While the Ks are doing their absolute best to undermine the current economy as much as they can, the recovery since the economic crisis has actually been built on much more fundamental grounds. The tragedy is how much more could have been gained without ongoing Kirchernite ineptitude. While it's true that some parts of the city may look worse for wear (such as Retiro, and I think there's a few reasons for that), a lot looks much better than the mid-1990s.

I guess my takeaway is that as rough as the economic circumstances are right now for many, I wouldn't think that the hill over your shoulder was any greener.

 

[Crema Americana]

4th in the world in misery? Please.

I know things aren't great here and I'm one of the first to criticize, but 4th in the world? Come on. I can't take that seriously. I don't know what specific parameters they're using, but we're not even 4th in Latin America... let alone including African and Asian nations. The people while not exactly jovial, aren't completely miserable either. There is poverty yes, more than there should be, but still - 4th?

One of the problems with these surveys and articles are that they always go to the extremes - either things are super great or just awful.

 

[fifs2]

4th in the world in misery? Please.

I know things aren't great here and I'm one of the first to criticize, but 4th in the world? Come on. I can't take that seriously. I don't know what specific parameters they're using, but we're not even 4th in Latin America... let alone including African and Asian nations. The people while not exactly jovial, aren't completely miserable either. There is poverty yes, more than there should be, but still - 4th?

One of the problems with these surveys and articles are that they always go to the extremes - either things are super great or just awful.

Hang on guys. Arent you confusing actual miserable living conditions with stated disatisfaction. I know many Argentineans who love to complain, especially about their country. When we chat i tend to be the peppy one trying to focus on the positive or we'd all be drowning in misery and negativity. Can I believe so many would say they were f**king miserable with the state of their country? Absolutely. Does that make them miserable people per se. Absolutely not. I mean look the heck where Germany scores consistently. This index should be considered a reflection of respondents national pride rather than misery measurement. Apologies to all germans .. Couple of bad boyfriends and miserable business trips to dusseldorf have forever colored my view of your lovely but miserable country

 

[Davidglen77]

What is most scary about the situation here for me and for others I speak with is the entire economy and its constant state of fragility and the ripple effect is has on everything and the havoc it generates within society. On one side you have the majority of Argentines, earning a peso income, in which there is no logical way to save any money with, EVEN if you place those pesos in Certificates of Deposit (plazo fijo) which pay over 25% annual interest (nowhere else in the world can you get this) because the dollar has been devalued at over 25% since December 2013 alone. It's projected that by the end of the year the dollar will have devalued at close to 40%, possibly more. So even if you place your peso "savings" at the best possible rate of 25% interest, you still will be -15% at the end of the year, being that prices for just about everything in Argentina are stated in pesos but dollar driven. And in this calculation I am not including inflation, which drives the peso even deeper into the hole.

So the constant tug of war continues, foreign companies who have set up shop here, people living on dollars earned outside of the country who are delighted (and benefit) from devaluation, as their dollars buy more and more, until of course, inflation kicks in, which it always does and they are back to the same point more or less, hoping and waiting with baited breath for further devaluation. And in the meantime, your average everyday Argentin@, loses purchasing power, has to fight and fight for a salary increase and has no logical way to save, EXCEPT buying dollars, holding them, and waiting for devalution to cash them in on the black market, and round and round we go...this is referred to in "criollo" as "la bicicleta financiera".

How can Argentina's entire population (not just 10%) ever truly prosper and stop living on the edge of financial abyss while this system continues? And NO you are not going to satisfy Argentines thirst for dollars - especially while what I just spelled out is the reality of the Argentine economy. I've heard SO many people (who are pro Cristina) say "why are people so crazy over dollars?" yet they and their family members keep dollars hidden around the house and would never consider using pesos on the receptive end for any major purchase. How many Argentines would be willing to sell a property in pesos? Very few, I guarantee you.

I am a big fan and supporter of this country, I am what you call "extranjero nacionalista", however I separate Argentina the country and it's people, from Argentina's government, which I was a supporter of at first, but no longer am due to the reality (not based on Clarin or any other news media reports) I see in front of my eyes every single day. What I see are incessant theatrics, short term fixes, increasing poverty, idolatry to no end, rabblerousing and simple denial of the truth. You can not run a country of 40 plus million people based on ideology. The whole claim of the government being the savior of the less fortunate is so worn out and I can't believe that there are people who believe that rhetoric. Anyway, that's my point of view, based on my experience over the course of living in this great country for more than 7 years. Other's opinions will differ, some will be alike.

 

[Crema Americana]

The problem that I see is that I'm not sure deep down Argentines really want things to change. Sure, they want better nicer things and higher standards of living... but I think they like the system when they can game it. They don't seem to mind booms and busts as long as they come out fine on the other side. Everything is seen as temporary and they grab what they can when they can. Would Argentines save even if they could? They save in dollars, but it's not the type of financial planning that exists in the US or Europe. They don't trust the banks (can't blame them for that) and they don't trust the government, but somehow they're satisfied to keep the status quo in place until things get really bad and then it's a revolution.

Argentines may complain a lot about Argentina, but get them away from Argentina and you'll see a lot more complaints about whatever country they're in. They tend to be dramatic and enjoy expressing displeasure - unlike other countries where politeness and optimism are more valued.

 

[EdRooney]

I agree with a lot of that, especially in regard to what you say about the Argentine savings dilemma, and like you I am no supporter of this government, as my ample posts here demonstrate.

That said, in reading your post, I could not but help compare the situation to the economy in the US where there is minimal inflation and they have allegedly moved past their latest crisis. Yet at the same time, I was speaking to a friend in Michigan last week and we tried to think of how many people we know in the US who actually own their house-- ie, not owned by the bank with a mortgage. Between us we came up with three names. Add on top of this that most of the people I know there have a year or two's worth of wages in student loan debts on their books, and most of them are a poorly timed medical accident away from bankruptcy. It would seem that systems in which people are given opportunities to save capital are greatly lacking-- in both north and south. Meanwhile, I have my relatives in Europe, where things are far worse.

I too have been here for around a decade, and I now live in Salta, but before moving here every year we would spend an average of 3-4 months in Jujuy, Santiago del Estero and Salta. This was a great opportunity to see the way the country evolved after the "2001 crisis" (which I would argue started way before 2001, but only came to be called a crisis when it hit the Buenos Aires monied classes). In that time, I have seen how the lives of most of the people around me have gotten much better (in spite of the Kirchners' bumbling, as CarryOn astutely mentioned).

These are people who are quite used to living hand to mouth, who clearly see (and vociferously complain about) the way too high inflation. But to them, inflation sucks, but being unemployed and homeless is much worse, and contrary to your point, their net wealth has grown considerably over the past 7 years, with many of my acquaintances here owning their own (albeit modest) homes outright-- in stark contrast to their counterparts in the US and Europe.

If you want to complain about the ideological acrobatics and the hero worship, I'm right on board with you there. Heck I have a barfing fit every time I see St Nestor paraphernalia (which has been grand for weightloss of late). But there is a tendency amongst expats to see things through the lens of their acquaintances from Recoleta, Palermo, Vicente López, etc., who have little love for the "unwashed masses with their Choris and Planes Sociales". In those barrios you may hear Argentina described as being in stark economic crisis and #4 on some libertarian's misery list, but that's not the way the majority of the country sees it.

 

[Matiasba]

What is most scary about the situation here for me and for others I speak with is the entire economy and its constant state of fragility and the ripple effect is has on everything and the havoc it generates within society. On one side you have the majority of Argentines, earning a peso income, in which there is no logical way to save any money with, EVEN if you place those pesos in Certificates of Deposit (plazo fijo) which pay over 25% annual interest (nowhere else in the world can you get this) because the dollar has been devalued at over 25% since December 2013 alone. It's projected that by the end of the year the dollar will have devalued at close to 40%, possibly more. So even if you place your peso "savings" at the best possible rate of 25% interest, you still will be -15% at the end of the year, being that prices for just about everything in Argentina are stated in pesos but dollar driven. And in this calculation I am not including inflation, which drives the peso even deeper into the hole.

So the constant tug of war continues, foreign companies who have set up shop here, people living on dollars earned outside of the country who are delighted (and benefit) from devaluation, as their dollars buy more and more, until of course, inflation kicks in, which it always does and they are back to the same point more or less, hoping and waiting with baited breath for further devaluation. And in the meantime, your average everyday Argentin@, loses purchasing power, has to fight and fight for a salary increase and has no logical way to save, EXCEPT buying dollars, holding them, and waiting for devalution to cash them in on the black market, and round and round we go...this is referred to in "criollo" as "la bicicleta financiera".

How can Argentina's entire population (not just 10%) ever truly prosper and stop living on the edge of financial abyss while this system continues? And NO you are not going to satisfy Argentines thirst for dollars - especially while what I just spelled out is the reality of the Argentine economy. I've heard SO many people (who are pro Cristina) say "why are people so crazy over dollars?" yet they and their family members keep dollars hidden around the house and would never consider using pesos on the receptive end for any major purchase. How many Argentines would be willing to sell a property in pesos? Very few, I guarantee you.

I am a big fan and supporter of this country, I am what you call "extranjero nacionalista", however I separate Argentina the country and it's people, from Argentina's government, which I was a supporter of at first, but no longer am due to the reality (not based on Clarin or any other news media reports) I see in front of my eyes every single day. What I see are incessant theatrics, short term fixes, increasing poverty, idolatry to no end, rabblerousing and simple denial of the truth. You can not run a country of 40 plus million people based on ideology. The whole claim of the government being the savior of the less fortunate is so worn out and I can't believe that there are people who believe that rhetoric. Anyway, that's my point of view, based on my experience over the course of living in this great country for more than 7 years. Other's opinions will differ, some will be alike.

Just one thing: I of course do not agree with you, but beyond opinions, the facts are the facts, and this government is the first one in 40 years that took people out of poverty, instead of increasing it. As you read, all the governments before (since dictatorship) no matter what intentions did they have, increased poverty, unemployment, etc.
These two variables, very important variables, for the first time in 40 years are getting better in the long term. We used to have when Nestor came to govern 54% under the poverty line. Now we are in 25%. Why is that?, because of the HUGE unprecedent social plan this government has, such as AUH, Subsidios, Jubilaciones, etc.

Those are facts beyond any discussion. And not talking of INDEC stats.

 

[Redpossum]

4th in the world in misery? Please.

I know things aren't great here and I'm one of the first to criticize, but 4th in the world? Come on. I can't take that seriously. I don't know what specific parameters they're using, but we're not even 4th in Latin America... let alone including African and Asian nations. The people while not exactly jovial, aren't completely miserable either. There is poverty yes, more than there should be, but still - 4th?

One of the problems with these surveys and articles are that they always go to the extremes - either things are super great or just awful.

Totally agree. Look at the countries they name - Serbia, Iran, Venezuela, Jamaica, Argentina.

Hello? Syria, massive US/Saudi/Israeli/Qatari-sponsored invasion by organ-eating savages, but not even on the list?

Afghanistan, occupied by USA and its European lapdogs for a dozen years, a half-a-million people dead and millions more displaced, with no end to the occupation in sight, but still not on the list?

Pakistan, subjected to a decade of US drone strikes murdering women, children and the elderly without mercy or discrimination, threatened by civil war, millions displaced internally or refugees, and still not on the list?

Yemen, again subjected to murderous US drone strikes slaughtering the innocent indiscriminately, civil war with the Houthi, border conflicts with Saudi Arabia, one of the lowest standards of living in the Arab world, but still not on the list?

Iraq, a million dead during the US attack and occupation, still occupied by 10,000 US troops under the guise of a "guard force" for the embassy, terrible birth defects as a result of the profligate use of depleted uranium ammunition by US forces, and now an invasion by the US/Saudi/Qatari-sponsored ISIL, but not even on the list?

Nigeria, decades of low-level civil war and now apparently next on the list for US invasion and occupation, but not even on the list?

Sudan, decades of low level civil war, partition into two nations, and now a civil war within South Sudan, but not even on the list?

Zimbabwe, 35 years of iron-fisted rule by Robert Mugabe, one of the worst tyrants sub-Saharan Africa has ever seen, devastated economy, recurring episodes of cholera and typhus/typhoid because the Mugabe "government" has neglected the once-fairly-good infrastructure until not even the capital of Harare has clean drinking water. And then there is the blood diamonds issue, complete with slave labor. And the periodic slaughter of the Ndebele by the Shona-dominated army, led by the 5th brigade. But still not on the list?

And we're supposed to believe that Argentina is worse than all of these?

Now have a look at the Wikipedia article on the Cato institute, check the three founders, see where it says Charles Koch? As in Koch brothers? I think that tells us all we need to know about the Cato institute. Whether or not individual Libertarians are aware of it, this is nothing more than a stalking horse for the reactionaries.

Steve, you mean well, and your heart is in the right place, but you are being used.