Argentina re-opening international flights in August!

antipodean

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What people have to understand is that these changes happen slowly - it's not an overnight thing. All it takes is the wrong people in power long enough to make certain changes and you are well on your way. Tell me is Argentina heading towards a more democratic, business friendly, capitalist society OR is it heading towards a more socialism, union based, handouts, anti-business, corruption based, no justice, corrupt judiciary society? It seems to be the leaders of this country have very close relations with Venezuela and Bolivia who are the very definition of socialist anti-capitalism societies with a history of poverty and violence.
It’s correct about the process of deteriorating into a Venezuelan situation - I was almost born there and have vague memories of it as a child and what my father would tell me, it was more modern and prosperous than even Argentina is today and no one thought those glory days would ever end.
However, you had me until the part about socialism. Most US people don’t seem to grasp the concept of it very well. Most of Europe is socialist. New Zealand is socialist. From time to time Canada, Australia and Israel are socialist. These countries are generally doing far better for most of their populations than the USA, while their businesses make money too. Social-democracies do not exclude capitalism. Venezuela and Bolivia are/ were authoritarian regimes practicing their own form of no se que - but I don’t think a box of food once a month and bring your own syringe public hospital is a model of socialism by any extent of the imagination, and would say that it’s closer to a Cuban form of communism where the state takes all and rations off the scraps while giving the prime cuts to its ruling families. Hence today Venezuela ranks as one of the most unequal countries in the entire world - where the (government-affiliated) rich still live in Palermo-esque barrios with trendy cafes and restaurants while over 70% of the population now live in abject poverty.
 
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Somewhereinba

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It’s correct about the process of deteriorating into a Venezuelan situation - I was almost born there and have vague memories of it as a child and what my father would tell me, it was more modern and prosperous than even Argentina is today and no one thought those glory days would ever end.
However, you had me until the part about socialism. Most US people don’t seem to grasp the concept of it very well. Most of Europe is socialist. New Zealand is socialist. From time to time Canada, Australia and Israel are socialist. These countries are generally doing far better for most of their populations than the USA, while their businesses make money too. Social-democracies do not exclude capitalism. Venezuela and Bolivia are/ were authoritarian regimes practicing their own form of no se que - but I don’t think a box of food once a month and bring your own syringe public hospital is a model of socialism by any extent of the imagination, and would say that it’s closer to a Cuban form of communism where the state takes all and rations off the scraps while giving the prime cuts to its ruling families. Hence today Venezuela ranks as one of the most unequal countries in the entire world - where the (government-affiliated) rich still live in Palermo-esque barrios with trendy cafes and restaurants while over 70% of the population now live in abject poverty.
I agree there are different forms of socialism - my issue with socialism is when the system itself cannot support it. Socialism comes AFTER society has already developed (via productivity, business growth, making things) to a place where everyone has the basics and you then have the resources to distribute wealth, healthcare etc to those less fortunate. The problem with countries like Argentina and Venezuela is they are putting the cart before the horse and not allowing economic growth to get them to a stage where they have leftovers to distribute to the less fortunate. The ONLY way to get to that position is through an improvement in productivity and improved education. Not having corruption also helps - tell me who in Argentina is happy paying taxes when you know every man and his dog is going to steal public funds for their own gain? You walk down the street and all you see is broken roads, dog shit, rubbish everywhere and a complete lack of improved infrastructure. Those that get caught stealing receive no punishment either. It's a never ending circle.
 

Jerbo

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American Airlines canceled all flights from EZE dates 9/1 through 9/8. Now, first flight available out of EZE is 9/9.
 

FrankPintor

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Frank think what you want and have any opinion you desire, it's a free world. (At least our part of it is.)
Wrong, I'm not posting an opinion, I'm posting an observation based on personal experience of living in both countries. The "X country is the next Venezuela" thing is useful as a filter, it shows who has no idea what they're talking about.

only thing I know is all my Venezuelan coworkers are getting ancy.
I wonder if they were getting Dollars at a special exchange rate would they still be antsy? Or, to put it another way, did they leave Venezuela before or after the Cadivi Dollars dried up? You might be surprised at how tolerant they can be as long as they're getting a little bit too.
 

EL_TIGRE_de_Tigre

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Wrong, I'm not posting an opinion, I'm posting an observation based on personal experience of living in both countries. The "X country is the next Venezuela" thing is useful as a filter, it shows who has no idea what they're talking about.


I wonder if they were getting Dollars at a special exchange rate would they still be antsy? Or, to put it another way, did they leave Venezuela before or after the Cadivi Dollars dried up? You might be surprised at how tolerant they can be as long as they're getting a little bit too.
Sorry about that Frank - My sincere apologies to you!

Please allow me the latitude to adjust ... Here is my best effort:

Frank, PLEASE understand I respect you, even though I disagree with you. It is possible I could be wrong, but at the moment I am not ready to concede that. Either way ... please post any observation on your personal experience you may have to share. Your experience as having lived in both countries is invaluable to the board. Lastly, I believe I do have an idea of what I am talking about, even though I have never set foot within the borders of Venezuela. It's kinda like this ... I don't need to experience something first hand to be able to form an informed opinion of something. I can use news and first hand accounts of people who have been or lived there. (I have a Venezuelan friend who lives in CABA - This friend has commented on more than one occasion that Argentina is eerily becoming more like Venezuela day by day. I kid you not, that was the comment.)

You may have the last word if you care to take advantage of the opportunity. Regardless of what you post, I will respect what I have just offered to you. Being a respectful person is more valuable to me than confrontation or argument. That's simply not me. (If you care to reply - I will hit the like button so you will know that I have given you the courtesy of reading your post.)

I wish you well and I will enjoy more of your posts as they come.

T
 

FrankPintor

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Sorry about that Frank - My sincere apologies to you!

Please allow me the latitude to adjust ... Here is my best effort:

Frank, PLEASE understand I respect you, even though I disagree with you. It is possible I could be wrong, but at the moment I am not ready to concede that. Either way ... please post any observation on your personal experience you may have to share. Your experience as having lived in both countries is invaluable to the board. Lastly, I believe I do have an idea of what I am talking about, even though I have never set foot within the borders of Venezuela. It's kinda like this ... I don't need to experience something first hand to be able to form an informed opinion of something. I can use news and first hand accounts of people who have been or lived there. (I have a Venezuelan friend who lives in CABA - This friend has commented on more than one occasion that Argentina is eerily becoming more like Venezuela day by day. I kid you not, that was the comment.)

You may have the last word if you care to take advantage of the opportunity. Regardless of what you post, I will respect what I have just offered to you. Being a respectful person is more valuable to me than confrontation or argument. That's simply not me. (If you care to reply - I will hit the like button so you will know that I have given you the courtesy of reading your post.)

I wish you well and I will enjoy more of your posts as they come.

T
You don't need to apologise, we've all had different experiences. I'm able to compare the two countries since I've lived and worked in both for a similar amount of time. I thought it might be useful to compare how it was when I arrived here in Ezeiza for the first time, and how it is arriving in Maiquetia

Actually my experience arriving here wasn't great, there had been a major thunderstorm in the night, so when I got in, there was a delay in collecting my luggage, and a 3-hour delay in getting an airport taxi, so I thought, well, Argentina has lived down to my expectations... even so, I had WiFi, I was able to get pesos from an ATM, get a SIM card from Personal, reserve an airport taxi, buy water and a sandwich, pretty much what you'd expect from a normal, if inefficient, country. And as I made my way here, I was able to rent an apartment, take out my mobile phone in the street, take a taxi with an actual taximeter, take the metro, buses (and get a card for that), walk anywhere I want, eat out in restaurants, even with a table on the street, and in general live an unconcerned expat life.

Contrast that with arriving in Maiquetia: there is actually WiFi in the airport, they broadcast the password on a separate SSID for some reason, but it is there, but there are no ATMs for you (doesn't matter really, the biggest banknote is worth less than the paper it's printer on), you won't be able to buy duty free or anything else, not even a bottle of water (they don't accept Dollars), when you exit the secure area you won't have WiFi, and you won't be able to get a SIM card (Digitel and Movistar closed their kiosks at the airport), if you didn't coordinate a taxi to pick you up, well, there are airport taxis (Jeep Cherokees mostly), but you might as well paint a big target on the back of your head when you take one (I never have). So let's assume you got this far, you got to a hotel, they will accept your dollars but charge for example $25 per meal, you will not be able to go out walking, since you will be "made" due to your behaviour and clothing once you step outside, this is the case even for returning Venezuelans, even in middle class areas of Caracas. Any trips you hope to survive will be made by prepaid taxi, door to door. You won't want to be a walking ATM for the criminals, but you have no choice, you need small denomination Dollar notes to perform any transaction. If you get stuck somewhere without cash, you're screwed, Venezuelans pay for taxis by bank transfer. And if you want to stay longer, anyone renting to you will want 6 months rent in advance. And your apartment will likely come with 3 or 4 keys, including one for the "reja" in front of the door of your apartment. The concierge will likely have a shotgun, by the way.

I've gone on enough, but I don't see my experience in Venezuela reflected here. I really think it takes 20+ years of uninterrupted single minded dedication to f*cking things up to get to where Venezuela is today. From what I can see, Argentina hasn't even started on that road.
 

TheDonald

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I hate to interrupt the Venezuela dialogue, but:

Alberto just announced phased reopening of several sectors of the economy - based on provincias. But there is no mention of air travel, especially international. Anyone (antipodean) heard anything?
 
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