Argentina's 1833 myth - a "Population Expelled" - De-bunked yet again...!

scotttswan

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http://www.flickr.com/groups/malvinas/discuss/72157626157758043/

found this interesting.

Particularly this part.

As you know all of Vernet's European settlers, and most of his black slaves, had left on the Lexington in January 1832, a year before HMS Clio arrived. And Captain Onslow's orders were not to molest any civilians. In fact, he was anxious that Vernet's gauchos should stay on so they could continue to hunt the wild cattle and so be able to supply fresh beef to visiting ships - and most of them did.

Of the civilians, only the gauchos Joaquin Acuña (who was actually Brazilian) and Mateo Gonzalez, and their women left. Only they were considered to be genuine islanders by the Argentine in charge at the time, José María Pinedo, the Commander of the Sarandí, the Argentine ship that had landed the garrison at Port Louis on the 6th October 1832.

it never actually occurred to me that Vernet had gone to the falklands with black slaves!
 
Yes, Vernet had taken black slaves, though slavery was being ended in Argentina gradually since the early 1800s, a significant milestone being granting "freedom of wombs" in 1813. But the process was slow and slavery was completely abolished no earlier than in 1853 (or 1860 for Buenos Aires). The Lexington took back most of the slaves in Port Louis, plus creoles that they had captured at the disembark and many settlers who were persuaded to leave by the violence of the raid and alarming posters that Capt. Duncan, of the Lexington, had placed around the village.

It is clear that few settlers remained after that, and that Onslow threatened with the use of force but didn't fire any shots. Contrary to what the link suggests, I doubt that there are any serious "pro-Argentine" sources that deny or minimize that. There are many texts around the Internet, on which this comment on flickr seems to pick up, that, among other manipulative artifacts, focus on extreme "pro-Argentine" voices like if they were the only ones. There are tendentious texts on both sides of the dispute, as there is rigorous work too.

Onslow didn't expel the pre-1833 settlers, but the Argentine authorities were forced to leave, their families followed them, Argentina was threatened not to send replacements or attempt other acts of government there, plus the new status motivated immigration of mostly-British origin (instead, for example, of the return of the settlers taken by the Lexington). That's in the line with what Cisneros says in his remarks to Pepper. The argument against the applicability of self determination is not based on Onslow supposedly expelling Argentine settlers, as the comment on flickr states, but on the current population being British, after 180 years of British de-facto rule that promoted British immigration and disallowed, or at least demotivated, Argentine settling.

Seeing a few tendentious summaries in the English-language webspace being taken seriously, and imagining that most English-speaking people are not motivated to look into authoritative (longer) sources, I am preparing a summary about the dispute in a series of posts, which include (what I believe to be) interesting references with quotes and links. The first one is about the Argentine acts of sovereignty until 1833, which go beyond keeping a garrison for a few months as the comment on flickr suggests, and I will soon post a second entry about the events of 1833 and its legal interpretations.

Regarding Onslow's incentive to the gauchos, Graham-Yooll briefly narrates its connection with the famous case of gaucho Rivero. That case is, now and then, mentioned by nationalistic voices in Argentina as if it were a case of resistance against British occupation, but it was more probably just a case of looting, as it was long ago stated by the Acadamia de Historia and other authoritative voices here. Not surprisingly, the unfounded interpretation has become somewhat trendy again...
 
Andy, This blog post ignores the fact that Vernett sought out permission from the British to go to the islands and kept them updated on his colony.
It is quite biased.

Although Captain David Jewitt (a man who later fought on the side of the Brazilians against the united provinces of rio plata) may have claimed the islands for the united provinces of rio plata in 1820. The Brits still claimed them from long before that by leaving a plaque on the islands.

Also during this time you have to include the fact that Hippolyte de Bouchard was going round the world claiming parts of it for the united provinces.

The 18th and 19 centuries were a different time. Argentina didn't exist and Patagonia was unclaimed. Borders were quite flexible.

The right to self determination for the current islanders outweighs any claim by Argentina or the UK.

If Argentina's claims are so strong why do they not go to the international courts and claim them there? There was no delay in doing that when Uruguay had a paper mill.

I'm sure the UK would abide by any rulings.
 
C'mon. Take a look to the map! And please ask your government to stop the double standards you apply in international affairs.
Malvinas para los pinguinos!
 
What is always of interest in such a contentious topic is what the peoples in question have to say. I do not know of many media outlets in Argentina that actually spoke to the 'residents' on April 2nd however to elucidate arguments of either persuasion, here is one such an interview: http://thetypicalmistake.com/archive.php
 
ActingBA said:
What is always of interest in such a contentious topic is what the peoples in question have to say. I do not know of many media outlets in Argentina that actually spoke to the 'residents' on April 2nd however to elucidate arguments of either persuasion, here is one such an interview: http://thetypicalmistake.com/archive.php

Thanks for the link, a very interesting show.
 
Scottswan, I've read many good sources and there is no mention of Vernet asking for British permission. That's brought across in a text by Pepper and Pascoe that has become popular on the Internet, but the only support they offer is that Vernet may have asked the British Consul to countersign the land grants he was awarded in 1828. Yet, countersignment means validating a document, its authenticity basically. It wouldn't imply that Britain was "co-granting" or attributing ownership to herself.

I make that point in footnote 14 of my blog entry. Other footnotes refer to other odd statements in that text, which are echoed in Wikipedia and other non-rigorous sites despite it not being an authoritative source. I guess this is due to the 'direct-democracy' nature of Wikipedia and Google, as I discuss in footnote 1.

How does Bouchard relate to Jewett? Saying that he was going round the globe claiming parts of it sounds to me like saying that San Martin traveled to Peru for sightseeing and shopping. Bouchard was fighting in the war for the independence of the Spanish colonies in South America under the Argentine Navy. His participation included circumnavigating the globe attacking Spanish resources under a letter of marque from Buenos Aires. The only thing close to a claim that I know of is when he attacked Spanish dominions in current California, planting his (Argentine) flag while he was testing the rebelliousness of the local population, who weren't too keen on supporting the emancipating efforts so he just left. I guess he may have repeated the procedure in Central America before joining San Martin in his voyage to liberate Peru. Anyway, Jewitt's case is quite different, as Buenos Aires had the will of exercising ownership of the islands and followed the legal process, which goes beyond planting a flag and casting a proclaim.

Claiming land was not enough to gain title. There has to be a precedent (e.g., the land belonging to no one) and the claim had to be followed by uninterrupted and peaceful occupation and exercising acts of government. This is not simply a matter of who claimed first.

Borders were not *that* flexible, this was after Westphalia. There was more flexibility compared to current times due to the recognition of rights of conquest, but it was conditioned to a state of war, which was not the case between Britain and Argentina or Spain in 1833.

As can be read from authoritative sources, the plaque left by the Britons who departed from Port Egmont in 1774 doesn't have the legal significance that you seem to be attributing. It would not compete with peaceful occupation and use of the territory by Spain and Argentina. It would work to keep the British claim alive in 1774, but that doesn't override the fact that British rights were doubtful in 1774, particularly outside of Saunders Island, where Port Egmont was located, and that there was a 55-year period of acquiescence after that, which would very probably imply prescription. I go into these kinds of issues on the second and third posts.

Tendentious texts often mislead in regards to requests for arbitration too. Contrary to what they sometimes say, it was Britain that refused arbitration. The instance that was refused by Argentina was only for the so-called dependencies, which required resolving on the status of the islands first. Good sources explain it better:

The difficulty in satisfactorily explaining its position was why Britain refused to discuss sovereignty over the islands with Argentina and to submit the dispute to arbitration throughout the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. Argentina requested in 1884 that the case be submitted to arbitration. Argentine has been the only nation ever to make this request. Britain offered in the 1940s and 1950s to submit only the Falkland Island Dependencies to arbitration. Britain's refusal to arbitrate weakened its claim. Jennings [who was Chairman of the International Court of Justice] wrote that "there must be a strong presumption against the validity of such an alleged title where the claimant is not willing to have that claim properly determined in a Court of Law." (Gustafson, "The Sovereignty Dispute Over the Falkland Malvinas Islands", Oxford University Press, p. 33)

British writers have criticized the Argentine unwillingness to submit to judicial settlement claiming that this attitude testified to the weakness of the Argentine legal position. However, it must be emphasized that these proposals involved, not the Falklands themselves, but only their so-called "Dependencies." Moreover, at the time these proposals were made, British state activities in the area and their expansion towards the Antarctic - in competition with Argentina - were being directed from and based on Britain's occupation of the Malvinas. Therefore, submission to the International Court of Justice would have implied that the Court might take into account the British presence in Malvinas in assessing the relative intensity, effectiveness and legal significance of the state activities of each litigant in the so-called "Falkland Islands Dependencies" without this analysis being influenced or affected in any way by the underlying territorial dispute involving the Malvinas themselves. This attitude was consistent with what had happened in the past when Britain had rejected all proposals for amicable settlement of the Malvinas dispute made by Argentina in the nineteenth century, including arbitration. Here again, in the post-World War II proposals, the legitimacy of the British presence on the Islands, a decisive factor in approaching the more general controversy involving legal title to what Britain herself has described as their "Dependencies," was deliberately removed from the scope of judicial inquiry. (Hope, "Sovereignty and Decolonization of the Malvinas (Falkland) Islands", Boston College International and Comparative Law Review, VI.2, p. 396)

I have found many learned and well-intentioned people believing arguments emanating from P&P, like the ones you're giving. A lot can be revealed from reading authoritative sources instead, with critical thinking. We (Argentines) are often unreasonable and excessively passionate, but not that much. :) We're a country of 40 million people, there is a thinking class here, though it's often not very visible...

As to why Argentina doesn't insist nowadays with the ICJ and claims for negotiations instead, that's a complex subject that I intend to comment in the third entry I will publish in that blog. On the other hand, that story about Argentina not existing is answered in footnote 3 of the first post and, in the third, I plan to look into the applicability of the self determination principle.
 
AndyD said:
Scottswan, I've read many good sources and there is no mention of Vernet asking for British permission. That's brought across in a text by Pepper and Pascoe that has become popular on the Internet, but the only support they offer is that Vernet may have asked the British Consul to countersign the land grants he was awarded in 1828. Yet, countersignment means validating a document, its authenticity basically. It wouldn't imply that Britain was "co-granting" or attributing ownership to herself.

Why would Vernet get it countersigned by the British Consul? He was then an Argentine citizen and the "land grant" was awarded to him by the Argentine Government of the time.
It wasn't until 1829 he was announced as the Commander of the Falklands and Tierra del Fuego. Which Britain protested.

AndyD said:
How does Bouchard relate to Jewett? Saying that he was going round the globe claiming parts of it sounds to me like saying that San Martin traveled to Peru for sightseeing and shopping. Bouchard was fighting in the war for the independence of the Spanish colonies in South America under the Argentine Navy. His participation included circumnavigating the globe attacking Spanish resources under a letter of marque from Buenos Aires. The only thing close to a claim that I know of is when he attacked Spanish dominions in current California, planting his (Argentine) flag while he was testing the rebelliousness of the local population, who weren't too keen on supporting the emancipating efforts so he just left. I guess he may have repeated the procedure in Central America before joining San Martin in his voyage to liberate Peru. Anyway, Jewitt's case is quite different, as Buenos Aires had the will of exercising ownership of the islands and followed the legal process, which goes beyond planting a flag and casting a proclaim.

Claiming land was not enough to gain title. There has to be a precedent (e.g., the land belonging to no one) and the claim had to be followed by uninterrupted and peaceful occupation and exercising acts of government. This is not simply a matter of who claimed first.

It is very important as it shows Argentina was sending people out around the world to fight the Spanish and also claim land.

The fact that the Falklands had been used as a stopover for decades before Jewett's claims by Americans and Brits for hunting seals.

Where are Jewett's orders to claim the islands for Argentina? Why did he not mention it in any report of his voyage to Argentina?


AndyD said:
Borders were not *that* flexible, this was after Westphalia. There was more flexibility compared to current times due to the recognition of rights of conquest, but it was conditioned to a state of war, which was not the case between Britain and Argentina or Spain in 1833.

Borders were VERY flexible. Texas later became part the the USA, Bolvia lost access to the sea.


AndyD said:
As can be read from authoritative sources, the plaque left by the Britons who departed from Port Egmont in 1774 doesn't have the legal significance that you seem to be attributing. It would not compete with peaceful occupation and use of the territory by Spain and Argentina. It would work to keep the British claim alive in 1774, but that doesn't override the fact that British rights were doubtful in 1774, particularly outside of Saunders Island, where Port Egmont was located, and that there was a 55-year period of acquiescence after that, which would very probably imply prescription. I go into these kinds of issues on the second and third posts.

But the plaques are very important as part of Argentine claims are based on the fact they inherited the islands from Spain.


AndyD said:
Tendentious texts often mislead in regards to requests for arbitration too. Contrary to what they sometimes say, it was Britain that refused arbitration. The instance that was refused by Argentina was only for the so-called dependencies, which required resolving on the status of the islands first. Good sources explain it better:

Lets ignore the few months that Vernet actually had a colony there.

What about the Arana-Southern Treaty? Where Argentina effectively gave up any right they had to the islands?

Why were there annual protests from when Britain reasserted her right to the islands until 1849 but these suddenly stopped after the treaty was signed?

38 years later they protested in 1888 and then stopped again until it was well into the 20th century.

The gaucho's who stayed when Britain reasserted her right to the islands went on to have children and have descendent living on the islands now.
Many are buried in Stanley.

Their claim to the islands is far more important than Brits or Argies.

Their right to self determination should be respected.
 
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