Argentines’ latest weapon against currency controls? Shopping abroad

[nicoenarg]

I don´t agree with your blanket statement that rasing taxes on companies is ALWAYS a bad idea. For example Cruise liners are mostly regsitered in foreign tax havens. Many of them use Miami as their real home port. They have acess to free coast guard services, pollute US air without penalty, and are serving not only Americans but people from all over the world. First off I don´t care if the consumer has to pay more. He should, not me, I don´t like going on cruises and many people who can´t afford them are subsidizing these companies. I think I understood your rational, but they should pay because not every one uses them equally. Your blanket statement would give Rolls Royce a free ride if they were paying under the norm, because we don´t want to have to have their consumers pay more.

Yes you're right. It does sound like a blanket statement but I was talking about companies keeping the context of the OP in mind.

However, if you do want to talk about cruise liners, I never said companies or individuals for that matter should never pay any fee for the services they use. Ideally, there shouldn't be any subsidies given to any company at the expense of others who don't use them. When a government offers any service for no charge whatsoever, the fact is that the government in turn is increasing taxes on the general populace.

That's messed up.

If I use a service, you or anyone else shouldn't have to pay for it. I should pay the full price. Same is true for education, health care and whatever else you can think of.

If cruise liners use a service, they should pay for it and so should their passengers. Its not that hard to institute fees for services that one provides.

But if a cruise liner is taxed extra just because "its a big bad cruise liner that should help distribute wealth so a little kid can go to school". Well that's messed up too. No one is responsible for the well being of a third party that they never agreed to look after in the first place...

Oh well, I seem to be going off topic here.

 

[nicoenarg]

On the note of extra taxation and unafforable wages, Symantec has decided to pack up its services division. Many people are going to lose their jobs now including a friend of mine.

But that's what you get when you tip the balance. If a company ends up paying to the government and the workers more than they make in profit, they will, sooner rather than later, pack up and leave for where they can actually make a profit. That's just how it works, sadly many governments and unions haven't figured that out just yet.

 

[dennisr]

Not like anyone can get us$ for anything, now they make it official, "buying US dollars for savings is BANNED." All I can do is smile and wonder, )-&:&@&&/$? Wheels have fallen off the bus.

http://www.ambito.com/noticia.asp?id=644288
http://translate.google.com/transla...TF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http://www.ambito.com/

 

[sesamosinsal]

If I use a service, you or anyone else shouldn't have to pay for it. I should pay the full price. Same is true for education, health care and whatever else you can think of. ........ No one is responsible for the well being of a third party that they never agreed to look after in the first place....

How far do you want to take that? Should police protection only be given if you can pay for it? Should you be refused an ambulance if you cannot pay for it? Should an education only be given to those who can pay for one? Should only those who can pay for the roads and highways around the world be able to use them? No libraries? No public transportation?

Ever heard of Somalia? I think you might like it.

 

[nicoenarg]

How far do you want to take that? Should police protection only be given if you can pay for it? Should you be refused an ambulance if you cannot pay for it? Should an education only be given to those who can pay for one? Should only those who can pay for the roads and highways around the world be able to use them? No libraries? No public transportation?

Ever heard of Somalia? I think you might like it.

Yes I have, and have been to Somalia too. If you think I was referring to a society like Somalia's when I mentioned education and healthcare then you don't know the first thing about Somalia and/or education.

Secondly, yeah, take it as far as you'd like. It would work in an educated society. That's why I said IDEALLY. Now, of course no society is perfect and the government has its role. And that role is not to make sure I send someone else's kid to school. That role is to make sure my rights or anyone else's rights are not infringed upon, no matter what the circumstance.

Healthcare and education are not anyone's rights. Access to those is. And I don't mean make it free, I mean don't discriminate against people based on their race, creed, what have you. If you can't pay for it, well too bad. This might sound oh so awful but I don't judge anyone when they dont make a contribution to a certain charity. Why should anyone be forced to pay for anyone else's well being?

Police and military should be a government's responsibility because like I said, no society is ideal.

As for roads and highways, well yes, I think those who use roads should pay a fee to use those roads. I don't know if you know this yet but road toll booths exist all over the world. Its not unfathomable. And if you can't pay for that road, take your car somewhere else. This isn't about worrying about people's feelings, this is called responsibility...something our society has worked very hard to forget. Not everyone deserves the same. Anyone who believes otherwise is either delusional or Cristina.

Like I said, I veered off from the main topic and I apologize for that. This discussion deserves a thread of its own. So if anyone's interested, we can talk it out in detail in a thread you create.

 

[sesamosinsal]

Healthcare and education are not anyone's rights. Access to those is. And I don't mean make it free, I mean don't discriminate against people based on their race, creed, what have you. If you can't pay for it, well too bad. This might sound oh so awful but I don't judge anyone when they dont make a contribution to a certain charity. Why should anyone be forced to pay for anyone else's well being?

We're not talking about a charity. We're talking about the operation of a country. If no one can read, write, do math, use a computer, etc., how can those people contribute to a society? If someone gets a job as a cashier, and she/he has never taken a basic math class, how do you expect that person to do her/his job? If you become deathly sick, can't afford health insurance, and can't go to the hospital because you can't pay (like so many cases in the U.S.), how are you going to work? Should you just weather the storm? What if you die? "Too bad?"

You clearly do not realize that we don't get ahead in life on our own accord. When your born, other people educated you, fed you, clothed you, etc. In fact, if you're never touched as a baby, you will die. No one in this world has ever gotten ahead on her/his own. We all had someone's help along the way -- even if it's just our mothers' touch.

Why do I care about your well-being? Think of us as a family living in the same apartment. If you can't work because you're sick, that means you don't have any money. If you don't have any money, you can't pay your share of the rent or buy any of your own food, which means you're freeloading and eating my food. If a fire breaks out in your bedroom, you won't be able to pay the firefighters to put it out, which means the whole place might burn down. And if you have a medical emergency, I'd rather have an ambulance come take you away, rather than drag you out myself.

You are right that we don't live in a perfect world, which is exactly why your pay-as-you-go view of society doesn't wash.

 

[Crema Americana]

Eclair...that's a very rare logic of yours...so if products and machinery are expensive everything anywhere should be as outrageous expensive as in Argentina? Why is then Argentina so expensive according to you?
and then again: there are other countries more expensive, indeed, but nowhere is service so bad as in Argentina. The combination of bad service and high prices makes it undesirable.

Others have explained it, but maybe I should have been a little more clear...

When talking about coffee, even if the waiter earns less than in Europe or the US, the coffee is more expensive due to rising costs of everything else. You used to get a cup of coffee for much cheaper... inflation, import restrictions, and business taxes have caused prices to go up on almost everything. The cafe owner has to survive so he passes rising costs of doing business and maintaining his lifestyle to consumers. Of course businesses here tend to charge as much as they can (and cut as many corners as they can too) but that's another matter.

Equipment, machinery, electronics... those are more expensive directly because of the import controls and taxes. Argentina generally doesn't produce these things. And even if they do, costs are higher because Argentine labor (though less expensive than US or European labor), is still much more expensive than Chinese labor - and standards don't seem to be the same either. So either you buy the nationally assembled brand (made of imported parts) and subsidize Argentine workers, or you buy the import and pay a significant import tax and markup due to limited availability. Either way, taxes are high, labor laws are anti-business in many respects, and quality isn't the best. So you get expensive crap!

On the other hand, manual labor is cheap. How many of us could afford to have a cleaning lady if it was in the US or Europe? Just a few days ago we had a guy come out and remove a medium sized tree for $400 pesos. He cut the whole thing down with nothing more than an axe, all the way down to the roots in a day. He did a pretty good job! Finding a good worker can be a challenge, but they're out there. Of course with all the costs you have to pay to hire someone full time (and the cost of firing too!) plus the raising of minimum wages, it does make certain businesses more expensive to run as well... hence the reason many workers are paid en negro (partially or in full.) Some workers prefer to get paid under the table as well since not declaring income makes them eligible for more government benefits.

 

[sesamosinsal]

Have you been to Norway?

The first thing I learned is that Norwegians don't think about taxes the way we do. Whereas most Americans see taxes as a burden, Norwegian entrepreneurs tend to see them as a purchase, an exchange of cash for services. "I look at it as a lifelong investment," says Davor Sutija, CEO of Thinfilm, a Norwegian start-up that is developing a low-cost version of the electronic tags retailers use to track merchandise.

http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say-ja-to-socialism_pagen_2.html

 

[nicoenarg]

We're not talking about a charity. We're talking about the operation of a country. If no one can read, write, do math, use a computer, etc., how can those people contribute to a society? If someone gets a job as a cashier, and she/he has never taken a basic math class, how do you expect that person to do her/his job? If you become deathly sick, can't afford health insurance, and can't go to the hospital because you can't pay (like so many cases in the U.S.), how are you going to work? Should you just weather the storm? What if you die? "Too bad?"

You clearly do not realize that we don't get ahead in life on our own accord. When your born, other people educated you, fed you, clothed you, etc. In fact, if you're never touched as a baby, you will die. No one in this world has ever gotten ahead on her/his own. We all had someone's help along the way -- even if it's just our mothers' touch.

Why do I care about your well-being? Think of us as a family living in the same apartment. If you can't work because you're sick, that means you don't have any money. If you don't have any money, you can't pay your share of the rent or buy any of your own food, which means you're freeloading and eating my food. If a fire breaks out in your bedroom, you won't be able to pay the firefighters to put it out, which means the whole place might burn down. And if you have a medical emergency, I'd rather have an ambulance come take you away, rather than drag you out myself.

You are right that we don't live in a perfect world, which is exactly why your pay-as-you-go view of society doesn't wash.

Lol. Very funny. I laughed through most of your post. It was good fun read and I took it as that too, funny and not serious because you seem to have ignored most of what I said in your passion to defend your position.

It was kinda sad to read though that your mother was forced by the government and other tax payers to bring you up. You sound like she wouldn't have done it without government intervention. And you seem to think that's normal.

Oh and to answer your question, yes "too bad" if I'm dying and I don't have money to go to the hospital (unlike the US where hospitals are required to treat you in the emergency room without asking for money or insurance), it's my fault for being irresponsible and not saving for a rainy day! In this case, I deserve what's coming to me.

Again, like I said, create a thread if you'd like Bradley and we can talk it out there. I don't wanna keep veering away further on here.

 

[davonz]

i was just looking at the real v peso... the peso has increased about 25% against the real - in Jan it was close to 2.80 pesos to the Real, now its 2.24 - but has been as low as 2.13.... so in other words it makes argentine producted goods exported to brazil alot more expensive, no wonder the car factory in cordoda stopped production last week as 75% of cars manufactured in arg are sent to brazil. Brazil is arg's biggest trading partner, so this must have quite an effect on the arg economy.