Article on Argentine Outsourcing

citygirl did make an incorrect statement about the employee quitting as opposed to letting go without cause. Unless the employee lies about what happened...

However.

Have you ever, as a business person, tried to actually fire someone for cause? You can have a ton of proof, but there is no jury, there is just two lawyers from each side who present papers to the judge (as I understand they often cannot even argue the case in person), who has complete leeway to decide as he will. And many times, even with proof, that judgement comes down on the side of the employee, NOT the company.

Have you ever tried to let an employee go who was a contract employee, with whom you even had a paper contract, signed by both parties, stating this was a contract position and you were not their employer and that they are not your employee? I'm talking about, for example, a maid or even an HTML developer. And then that person decides to sue you for back taxes and pay as an employee and per the description above the judge finds in favor of the "employee".

Argentina law favors employees over business. I know so many people here who have employed people and end up screwed by this attitude.

As for the rest, what an employer is required to provide to an employee here - well, aguinaldo, or a forced 13th month salary and one month of severance (again, forced, no matter what) per year of work (after a "safe" three month probationary period at the beginning). That's pretty good right there.

Particularly for a work force who doesn't get much done while spending much of its time avoiding work where possible in various forms. I used to work with a medium-sized software outsourcing company here (hiring teams of programmers). I never saw so much wasted time. I never so saw many people coming in with a couple of hours' sleep so often durign the week after having been out until late and still being half-drunk or stoned.

Why do you think there are so many mom and pop stores where they would never dream of hiring someone not a part of the family to run their store? They can't afford the probable liability an employee brings with it, and therefore have to close one or two days a week so they can get some rest and 2-4 weeks out of the year so they can have a vacation.
 
In Argentina, it is common knowledge that in a lawsuit the worker always wins, one way or another.

A case in point:

A friend of mine was sued by one of his employees. The lawsuit was so frivolous that he went to court, and won. Oh, miracle of miracles...!

Yet, even though he won the lawsuit, Argentine law required him to pay the lawyer of the worker who sued him, because the guy had declared himself to be "indigent".

How's that for worker-friendly laws?
 
SaraSara said:
In Argentina, it is common knowledge that in a lawsuit the worker always wins, one way or another.

A case in point:

A friend of mine was sued by one of his employees. The lawsuit was so frivolous that he went to court, and won. Oh, miracle of miracles.

Yet, even though he won the lawsuit, Argentine law required him to pay the lawyer of the worker who sued him, because the guy had declared himself to be "indigent".

How's that for worker-friendly laws?


How long have you been living in Argentina?? You know little about this country.

You arrived here from the 1st world with the intention of hiring some banana country employee, pay him a miserable salary and take all profits back to your country and then state that our laws are employee-friendly? How they should be in your opinion?

Do you have an idea of who pay more taxes in this country??? WORKERS, 21% consumption tax

This is the TAX collection of January 2010. I took this from the AFIP portal.

$8,255 millions Consumption TAX (IVA)

$4,967.4 millions Corporate TAX (Impuesto a las Ganacias)

If you are objetive and think more before complaining you will change your mind.
 
How long have you been living in Argentina?? You know little about this country.

You arrived here from the 1st world with the intention of hiring some banana country employee, pay him a miserable salary and take all profits back to your country and then state that our laws are employee-friendly? How they should be in your opinion?

Do you have an idea of who pay more taxes in this country??? WORKERS, 21% consumption tax

This is the TAX collection of January 2010. I took this from the AFIP portal.

$8,255 millions Consumption TAX (IVA)

$4,967.4 millions Corporate TAX (Impuesto a las Ganacias)

If you are objetive and think more before complaining you will change your mind.

Ridiculous! Sadly this line of thought represent quite well the average argentinian´s way of thinking.

FYI, its not that workers pay more, rich people and business owners pay IVA too you know. The problem is that the IVA, being the most regressive kind of Tax, affects PROPORTIONALLY more to people with low incomes.

As for SaraSara comment, she is correct, argentinians laws benefit the worker in the most ridiculous ways. A 40+% of the argentine workforce working "en negro" (off the books) if proof enough of the irrationality of the system.
 
Um.. no, I'm not wrong on my statement about employees and having to pay. And yes, there are still things that must be paid if someone quits. I have had 2 employees quit without cause or warning. I still had to pay them out their aguinaldo. They also have to send you a telgram stating they have renounced their employment. And they have 2 weeks to do that without it being considered job abandonment. So yes, you are on the hook for those 2 weeks. And their health insurance, yes, also had to pay in full for that month even though they quit 2 days into the start of the month. The first employee worked for less than 90 days. By the time I paid out everything, it was ridiculous. 3 months of health insurance (3000 pesos). 2 weeks of waiting for the notice. 3 months of salary. aguinaldo (pro-rated). The vacation days accrued during that time. And I was lucky.

And corporations evade taxes? Which ones? We pay an enormous amount of taxes.

Which employee laws are friendly? Pretty much all of them.
 
Oh and this "You arrived here from the 1st world with the intention of hiring some banana country employee, pay him a miserable salary and take all profits back to your country and then state that our laws are employee-friendly? How they should be in your opinion?"

really pisses me off.

We set up a company here. We pay our employees more than fair salaries. We pay their health insurance. We provide them transportation. We pay our taxes - corporate and otherwise.

My point is and was that while I think Argentina is a valid option for outsourcing - there are challenges here.
 
Vikingo said:
How long have you been living in Argentina?? You know little about this country.

You arrived here from the 1st world with the intention of hiring some banana country employee, pay him a miserable salary and take all profits back to your country and then state that our laws are employee-friendly? ...

Vikingo: I probably shouldn't dignify your aggressive post with a reply, but here it goes:

I was born in Argentina, grew up in BA, left for the States in my mid-twenties, and visited every year for a month until I moved back here sixteen years ago.

So, yes, I do know a little about this country.

By the way, do you have any thoughts of your own, or do you just regurgitate tired old cliches about "banana countries" and "greedy foreigners"?
 
fedecc said:
Ridiculous! Sadly this line of thought represent quite well the average argentinian´s way of thinking.
yeah, and sadly your thought represents many "americans" and i bet almost everyone on this site agree with your position.

fedecc said:
FYI, its not that workers pay more, rich people and business owners pay IVA too you know. The problem is that the IVA, being the most regressive kind of Tax, affects PROPORTIONALLY more to people with low incomes.
It is that workers pay more, are you blind or what?? A person whose salary is $2,000 will buy more goods than a business man with an income of $20,000

fedecc said:
As for SaraSara comment, she is correct, argentinians laws benefit the worker in the most ridiculous ways. A 40+% of the argentine workforce working "en negro" (off the books) if proof enough of the irrationality of the system.

I partially agree on this, employers pay much to the state for each employee, i will research how it works in other countries. Argentine small familiar companies shouldn´t pay that much but as for foreing companies is ok.

citygirl said:
And corporations evade taxes? Which ones? We pay an enormous amount of taxes.

Use your brain, i know it´s hard, you haven´t received a proper education. I am going to be as simple as I can.
This is the TAX collection of January 2010. I took this from the AFIP portal.
$8,255 millions Consumption TAX (IVA) * 21%
$4,967.4 millions Corporate TAX (Impuesto a las Ganacias) * 35%
If you buy a carpet for $100, $21 goes to the state as IVA.
From the rest $79 minus cost equal profits.. from the profits you pay the $35
Now how can it be that the state receives more money via IVA than profits?
The State of the US receives more money via profits taxes than consumption tax and it´s not because it´s a lower percentage.
In Italy profit taxes represents the 15% of the GDP, in Argentina only 2.5%
In conclusion, this country benefits corporations at the expense of the people.

citygirl said:
Oh and this "You arrived here from the 1st world with the intention of hiring some banana country employee, pay him a miserable salary and take all profits back to your country and then state that our laws are employee-friendly? How they should be in your opinion?"

really pisses me off.
Your comments also piss me off and I checked with others to see if I am overreacting and they feel the same.

citygirl said:
My point is and was that while I think Argentina is a valid option for outsourcing - there are challenges here.
How can you betray your own people by hiring workers outside your country only to reduce costs? You don´t love your country, you only love $$$$
Outsourcing should be forbidden since it only benefits millionaries stockholders.

SaraSara said:
Vikingo: I probably shouldn't dignify your aggressive post with a reply, but here it goes:
I am the aggresive?? Who is in Iraq killing innocent people?? Who destroyed Hiroshima?? Who supported so many cruel dictators around the world?? Who encourages our armed forces to carried out so many coup d'état (golpe de estado). I will better stop now and I´m afraid that CIA sends me to Guantamano.
Sometimes I doubt if you are serious or just making fun of others.

SaraSara said:
I was born in Argentina, grew up in BA, left for the States in my mid-twenties, and visited every year for a month until I moved back here sixteen years ago.
You were born in Argentina??? If you really felt argentine you would say "I´m argentine"... you are an american who was born in argentina.

SaraSara said:
By the way, do you have any thoughts of your own, or do you just regurgitate tired old cliches about "banana countries" and "greedy foreigners"?

All I say is my personal opinion.
 
Vikingo, thanks for setting me straight about my true nationality - I sure was mistaken about it. It is a great pity you don't like the US.

Now, FYI:
I'm American, and proud of it.
I'm Argentinian, and used to be proud of it - sadly, not so much right now.

Sorry if that offends your delicate nationalistic sensibilities. Truth is, over the past six years this beautiful country has become the laughingstock of the world. It is hard to see people in tiny Uruguay look down on us with such scorn and pity. They used to envy us, but now they find us ridiculous and laughable.
 
It is that workers pay more, are you blind or what?? A person whose salary is $2,000 will buy more goods than a business man with an income of $20,000
No, what you dont seem to understand is that people with lower incomes pay more tax IN PROPORTION TO THEIR INCOMES. A millionare that goes to the supermarket to buy milk pays the same amount of IVA than a poor man. The difference is that for the millionarie 21% of a bag of milk means nothing but to the poor guy means a lot. In the same way, its not that the workers "buy more goods" (that was hilarious by the way:D), its that the poor spend all their money in consumer goods and therefore ALL of their income is taxed with IVA. A better off family has money to save, so not all of its income is taxed with IVA, again, proportionality, remember it.

There lies the injustice of the system and its bad enough as it is, but saying "the workers pay more taxes" and showing the TAX collection results as proof of that is just wrong.
 
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