Besazo -- The Gay Community's Way Of Protest

[khairyexpat]

you have some deeply ingrained phobia

Sounds like a troll to me !!!

 

[Bajo_cero2]

I find this a curious fact (especially the "with luck" embellishment) assuming it is a fact, that is.
In the jurisdictions with which I am familiar, there are some public offenses which are punishable just by a fine and not by arrest and incarceration. However, when a police officer tells a violator of such an offense to stop doing it and the violator then refuses, that constitutes a different, more serous violation (e.g., interference with law enforcement, willful refusal to follow a legal police directive, etc) which may properly subject the violator to arrest. In most civil societies a citizen can not refuse to obey a proper, legal directive from a police officer. It constitutes an offense for which arrest is correct.
For example, jaywalking may be simply a finable "non-arrestable" offense, but if the jaywalker continues to cross the street back and forth after a cop tells him to stop, he then can (and should ) be arrested. At least where I come from. Ditto for a police directive to "stand back" at a crime scene or public disturbance. Not to do so is an interference with proper police actions and will subject a person who refuses to do so to arrest.

This is not the case. According to the Codigo Contravencional the police must tell them to stop once, if they do there is no fine. Otherwise they can only enact an acta contravencional and they have to go to the judge contravencional later and there is a small debate alike the American system.

 

[julian63]

This is not the case. According to the Codigo Contravencional the police must tell them to stop once, if they do there is no fine. Otherwise they can only enact an acta contravencional and they have to go to the judge contravencional later and there is a small debate alike the American system.

I'm confused. Could be language. How do the police know the identity of the violator? Do they allow the smokers who refuse to stop smoking to continue to smoke while they examine their ID docs? ? Are the police really helpless to actually make them stop smoking without arresting them? How do the police know the violators will appear in court? I confess the system strikes me as odd.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

You need the order of a judge to arrest someone unless police cach them commiting a crime. To smoke is not a crime. Why is this dificult to understand? Are you from Cuba? We did copy many of our institutions from the US before 9/11. There is a principle at criminal law called proportionality. You cannot go to jail is the punishment is a fine...

 

[ben]

The contention is that they were not getting arrested for smoking, but rather that after being instructed to desist from said smoking - first by an employee of Metrovias, then by a peace officer - they refused to follow that order, and/or became belligerent towards that officer. As julian63 noted in post #30, that is something very different to simply having smoked in the subway - and in most jurisdictions on earth will land your derrière in jail.

There is also the question of whether resisting arrest is justified/permissible even if the arrest is improper (as opposed to pursuing legal remedies after the fact, remedies which bajo claims do in fact exist). That any arrestee be permitted, based on their own assessment of their position, to fight the arresting officer, does not appear to be a sane stance, nor a healthy one.

Ultimately, this devolves to a he said/she said situation, where absent video of the whole episode it would be pretty hard to get to the bottom of the facts. According to Feinmann and the police this has nothing to do with their lifestyle and everything to do with the fact that they smoked then shoved said lifestyle in everyone's faces almost as justification. According to the suspects, they were being singled out and harassed for being affectionate in public. Who you choose to believe - did the belligerence stem from the prior harassment they received? or was there no harassment at all, just drama queens looking to muddle the waters? - hinges to some extent on your own biases.

In Utah, an officer was fired and his supervisor demoted for an altercation between an officer and a nurse, where bodycams worn by the officer made quite clear that the officer was at fault. One can certainly speculate that absent the video, the nurse would may have been written up for police interference and been charged and vilified instead of being apologized to.

Either the police force has to be so carefully vetted and trained so as to make them citizens above reproach, whose testimony is rightly considered unimpeachable, or body cams need to become mandatory here too. Would definitely help avoid cases like Maldonado.

 

[julian63]

You need the order of a judge to arrest someone unless police cach them commiting a crime. To smoke is not a crime. Why is this dificult to understand? Are you from Cuba? We did copy many of our institutions from the US before 9/11. There is a principle at criminal law called proportionality. You cannot go to jail is the punishment is a fine...

It seems pretty clear who is the one having difficulty understanding.

 

[Tres Picos]

It's time to stop conflating lesbians and gays. One is probably a conditioned caused by a parasitic microbe while the other is likely adaptive behavior. Break the alliance. Don't generalize!

 

[Rich One]

It's time to stop conflating lesbians and gays. One is probably a conditioned caused by a parasitic microbe while the other is likely adaptive behavior. Break the alliance. Don't generalize!

Conflate: combine (two or more sets of information, texts, ideas, etc.) into one.
Thanks for the illustration.

​Seems your statement is politically incorrect .....Microbes?? Adaptive behavior, God Bless Amerika !

 

[Bajo_cero2]

More examples?
Police killed him with a radio for not paying the pizza:
https://www.cronica....71019-0043.html

Welcome to the kingdom of happiness...

 

[julian63]

More examples?
Police killed him with a radio for not paying the pizza:
https://www.cronica....71019-0043.html

Welcome to the kingdom of happiness...

I don't read Spanish fluently, but it appears from the linked news report that the victim was drunk, belligerent, and died of a heart attack after confronting police. Are you trying to bootstrap this story to prove that Macri is a tyrant and urges police to kill minor thieves ala Victor Hugo's Les Miserables? Isn't that kind of an unsupported stretch of the facts?