But but but the guy resisted!!!

[nicoenarg]

http://www.clarin.com/policiales/Matan-joven-robarle-auto-Lanus_0_663533814.html

You know that a soceity has gone down the drain completely when one of the first comments they make about a murder sounds something like this: "Well, the guy resisted so they murdered him."

I am shocked at the way people handle murders here. It is fine and dandy when you give someone the advice, "do not resist or they will kill you" but it is another matter when the reason for someone being murdered is put down as "resistence".

What is it with society in Argentina that they can't just turn around and say, "oh, yeah, some assholes killed an innocent man while trying to steal his car and they should be brought to justice."? What is it about people here that they have to find fault with the victim?

I was watching the mother and the wife of this guy being interviewed on this TN tv (or whatever its called, its got a big T on the bottom left) and was baffled when one of the reporters asked her, "oh but did he resist?" (this is how it was translated to me, so correct me if I am wrong). Why the @&#! does that matter?! The guy is dead, go after the culprits and stop trying to pin this on the guy who just lost his life.

It isn't scary that the crime is on the rise, what's scary is people's attitude towards it, and what I see here leads me to believe that these people have no morals and so they will always remain a crimincal society (yes, I am painting the whole society in one color here, this isn't the first time I have seen behavior like this).

When the French tourist died, I heard "Oh he resisted..." before I heard who the murderer was. And now I hear the same thing. The hell is up!?

By the way, this is from the article above, in case no one bothers reading the thing:

""Mi hijo salía de trabajar a la mañana y volvía a la noche. Era un chico que no faltaba nunca al trabajo. Con mucho sacrificio se pudo comprar su cero kilómetro. Es mentira que dicen que mi hijo se resistió", sostuvo."

 

[HenryNisental]

100 % agree with you. By the way, I am finishing a book that I have been working for months now, about liberalizing the CCW permits in this country.
I made a very methodical research, specially with the USA as reference.
I bought many books on the subject from the USA.
The title will be "LA PORTACIÓN OCULTA", which is a rough translation of CCW.
I did not do it for profit, but as a civic duty, I think.
And please, do make any comments until you read it, if you can.
If you can´t, try to get some of the books from the bibliografy section (from the USA, of course), read them, and then make a reasoned opinion.
There is a free internet site worthy to read: www.gunfacts.info

 

[Mitch]

100 % agree with you. By the way, I am finishing a book that I have been working for months now, about liberalizing the CCW permits in this country.
I made a very methodical research, specially with the USA as reference.
I bought many books on the subject from the USA.
The title will be "LA PORTACIÓN OCULTA", which is a rough translation of CCW.
I did not do it for profit, but as a civic duty, I think.
And please, do make any comments until you read it, if you can.
If you can´t, try to get some of the books from the bibliografy section (from the USA, of course), read them, and then make a reasoned opinion.
There is a free internet site worthy to read: www.gunfacts.info

Ummm Henry. Do you think most people on here know what a CCW is? We might venture an educated guess by the nature of your text. Do you need an editor for your book?

 

[nicoenarg]

For those that don't know what CCW is, it means "Concealed Carry" or "Carrying a Concealed Weapon".

 

[Crema Americana]

The victim isn't at fault... but it's a known fact if you resist, your chances of being shot or stabbed increase. It seems defeatist, but honestly in those situations the best thing to do is just give them your car or camera (or whatever they're looking for) and hopefully they'll go away. No material possession is worth losing your life over.

When people bring up that they resisted, I think perhaps they're just sad or angry that it was preventable... (even if it may not have been)... and what one should do in that situation. It's also a protective instinct... "he died because he resisted" is more like "if that happened to me, I wouldn't resist and I wouldn't get killed." This is of course not always the case, but makes the person feel better psychologically that they have power over their own fate. Many Argentines are in denial about the crime situation in this country.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Well, the chances to survive if you try to resist are low. Even for police men when they are not in duty usually die when they try to resist. So, it is usually a stupid idea because they have the surprise factor and usually they also have numerical superiority. On the other hand, when police men are on duty, usually are the criminals who get killed because police have numerical superiority.
Regards

 

[ElQueso]

I don't think that they were blaming the victim. I didn't see the news broadcast you talked about, but the article simply states that he didn't resist.

I think in this they are trying to "make sense" of what happened, not blame the victim, when they mention he didn't resist. It seems to me that this is the extreme example of a lot of issues I see here, where people basically just accept whatever is given them in relation to the society. In this case, the idea seems to be that "everyone knows" there are murderous animals out there, there are not nearly a sufficient number of police to patrol the city outside of the "better neighborhoods" (let's not even discuss the measly sum the police who are employed are paid and the large amount of corruption that is accepted as a result) and the way to deal with these animals is not to call for help or hope that there is law and order, but rather "don't struggle and accept what is happening and they will just take your possessions." In this case they just "killed him like a dog," and they don't understand the result because there seems to be a thought that animals like these punks should understand the rules and play by them.

I'm not saying I don't have the same feelings on how to deal with rabid animals like this. I'm not a voter since I' not a citizen here, I can't do any more than opine about the unfortunate circumstances that a lack of law and order creates. I'm not trained to defend myself and would likely end up dead no matter what I did and the best course often does indeed seem to be to not resist and let them take your possessions.

BTW, I'm from Texas where we have permits to carry concealed handguns. I'm personally a believer in this, as a right of responsible, trained and licensed people. "When guns are outlawed, only the outlaws carry guns."

HOWEVER, I don't know that it is any kind of solution to violence of this sort. What kind of chance would the victim have had to pull out his gun and defend himself in a situation like this? In most cases, really, I think it provides more of an opportunity to get oneself killed thinking that you are protected and acting accordingly, to your detriment. But I strongly believe that this should be a right of everyone to carry weapons to defend oneself if one so chooses and one has demonstrated the ability to carry a gun responsibly.

I tried to visit the link that Henry posted but got a "server not found" error.

 

[nicoenarg]

I tried to visit the link that Henry posted but got a "server not found" error.

I had the same error but then I fed it through google and got in. Try gunfacts.info without the www preceding it. Maybe that'll work for you. It did for me.

 

[ElQueso]

Quite an interesting read, Henry. Admittedly, I've only gotten about 1/4 of the way through it, but it seems to be quite well referenced and I enjoy seeing idiocies that are perpetrated on the public exposed in such a fashion.

In fact, some of the statistics cited about survival of a victim armed as opposed to unarmed in violent crimes makes me rethink my previous statements related to the advisability of carrying a weapon for self-defense...

 

[HeyBA]

Can be frustrating the way people blame the victim for resisting, agreed.

I fall on both sides of it. I meet people that are knew here and are a little bit cowboy. They say things like, "I'll kick his ass if he tries to rob me!" My response is usually, "Man, you have no idea what you're dealing with. They work in teams, sometimes with the cops, and sometimes are in withdrawal from some hardcore narcotics." Best to just fork over the cash.

But after the fact, I can't stand the circumspect questions to determine if it might be the victim's fault. "Did you have a camera?" "Did they see your money?" "Where you drunk?" "Foreigners shouldn't go to that neighborhood" "Oh, you should have called a radio taxi!" F that. It's human nature to defend yourself and a natural right in any society.

It's especially grating when some street hood is harassing you because you're a foreigner, and bystanders cop an attitude like, "Well, he doesn't have very much, and your obviously a rich foreigner." And then they speak all nice to the guy to show their superiority over you.

This is frustrating because I personally feel I have to be the master of my own personal space for security purposes here. I don't really care about giving some guy two pesos or a piece of bread off a restaurant table, it's that he has to get close to me to do it. So while I'm making sure I don't get robbed or stabbed, it's annoying for some local who is not exactly suffering in life to get all high and mighty. (Although many locals are suffering, I figure if you're dining out for 200 pesos things are generally alright for you.)

I should add, I see much more of people assisting and being protective of foreigners than what I see above. It's just annoying when it happens.