Citizenship - how long?

[sternum]

 

[SinPulgas]

View attachment 9826

That's just some chat. I'm looking for an authoritative source.

I say this because I know for a fact that Argentines (like my wife) who are retired and whose retirement income reaches the taxable income of a working person must pay taxes on their retirement income, and I know that because various times throughout the years, she has been above that level and has had to pay taxes on her retirement income. I've also read many articles in the newspapers over the years on this subject, but only as it relates to Argentines.

I think they put the rule about six (not eight) minimum jubilaciones (not salaries) in during the Macri years. It has been changed several times, and it may be eight now.

In any case, if retired Argentines have to pay taxes on their retirement income, I find it highly unlikely that foreigners would be exempt, but I've never been able to find the specific law about it, and I've never seen a definitive authoritative statement about this. Just hearsay as you've posted above.

I'm interested because once in a while, depending on the rules at the moment and the value of the dollar, my retirement income comes up to the level where I might have to pay taxes if I were a retired Argentine person. But it has never lasted more than a month or two, and it would never have been more than a couple dollars of tax, so I never investigated it with an accountant.

But if something like Milei's initial income tax proposal were to ever be accepted, I (and probably many others of us) would be well within the taxable range. And a number of us are surely in that range already. So it should be of interest to those of us who would like to be legal and above board and not have some future potential problem hanging over our heads.

 

[SinPulgas]

The whole topic of taxable pensions should probably be in its own thread. Administrator?

 

[sternum]

That's just some chat. I'm looking for an authoritative source.

I say this because I know for a fact that Argentines (like my wife) who are retired and whose retirement income reaches the taxable income of a working person must pay taxes on their retirement income, and I know that because various times throughout the years, she has been above that level and has had to pay taxes on her retirement income. I've also read many articles in the newspapers over the years on this subject, but only as it relates to Argentines.

I think they put the rule about six (not eight) minimum jubilaciones (not salaries) in during the Macri years. It has been changed several times, and it may be eight now.

In any case, if retired Argentines have to pay taxes on their retirement income, I find it highly unlikely that foreigners would be exempt, but I've never been able to find the specific law about it, and I've never seen a definitive authoritative statement about this. Just hearsay as you've posted above.

I'm interested because once in a while, depending on the rules at the moment and the value of the dollar, my retirement income comes up to the level where I might have to pay taxes if I were a retired Argentine person. But it has never lasted more than a month or two, and it would never have been more than a couple dollars of tax, so I never investigated it with an accountant.

But if something like Milei's initial income tax proposal were to ever be accepted, I (and probably many others of us) would be well within the taxable range. And a number of us are surely in that range already. So it should be of interest to those of us who would like to be legal and above board and not have some future potential problem hanging over our heads.

Thanks again for your information. Its a very important issue. As well I do not like that they force people to have their pensión transferred to Argentina. Which is not possible with some countries, because of very severe white wash rules. And It is a discrimination of pensioners.

 

[rob0001]

If you stay two years, without going out of the country, you are entitled to citizenship for free. You do not need lawyer.
There is an office in Libertad with all the judges between Viamonte and Córdoba. They only speak Spanish. You can ask there.
If you have family here, it can take 3 months.
Having a lawyer does not guarantee citizenship, but you are legal in the country with the tramite.
However, you should know that Argentina has a worldwide tax system. They have the right to tax income, property and fortune, (not pensión though) in other countries. The double tax agreements does not help you much. You can speak to an accountant about it.

You can leave the country during the two years as a temporary resident...up to 6 months a year...I have and it's totally legal.

 

[SinPulgas]

Thanks again for your information. Its a very important issue. As well I do not like that they force people to have their pensión transferred to Argentina. Which is not possible with some countries, because of very severe white wash rules. And It is a discrimination of pensioners.

I never heard anything anywhere about being forced to transfer my pension (US social security) to Argentina.

 

[FrankPintor]

The whole topic of taxable pensions should probably be in its own thread. Administrator?

Corral all the "grumpy old retirees" in their own thread? Sounds great

No insult, belligerence, or pedantism intended, at most some gentle humour

 

[sternum]

I never heard anything anywhere about being forced to transfer my pension (US social security) to Argentina.

I asked the migración in Hipólito Yrigoyen, and they where very strict with that you could not have a pensión visa, without transferring money to Argentina. And it cannot be in crypto.
However it is not said on their website and nobody told me before handing in papers, so I have a hard time to understand how this can be legal. I have not seen any law about It.

 

[Alby]

Once we become a tax resident in Argentina (in simplified terms, after completing 12 months as a temporary resident on the program run by Migraciones), our overseas pensions are taxable as ganancias if they are above the minimo no imponible (still around 3,500,000 pesos per month after the Senate rejected the government's proposed change on Wednesday), or 1,800,000 pesos a month (if the government eventually gets its way). To think otherwise is wishful thinking. It's very clear in the legislation: the authoritative source is Article 119 of the LEY DE IMPUESTO A LAS GANANCIAS https://www.argentina.gob.ar/normativa/nacional/decreto-649-1997-44911/actualizacion.

On the positive side, the same legislation allows for any tax paid in the home country on that pension to be deductible. It is also worth knowing that anyone passing through the Migraciones residency process can keep themselves free of becoming a tax resident by spending 90 days of each 12 months of their temporary residency outside Argentina.

The same rules apply to people on a Rentista temporary residency.

The issue about bringing in one's pension only applies to those currently seeking (Migraciones pensionista) residency. Since June last year, those in that process have been required by Migraciones to deposit an amount equal to 5 sueldos minimos each month into an Argentine bank account (https://www.boletinoficial.gob.ar/detalleAviso/primera/297452/20231031). Nobody who has already passed through Migrations residency and reached permanent residency needs to bring their pension into the Argentine financial system at all (but even so, is still liable to declare their pension over and above the minimo no imponible and pay tax on it, thus like any other Argentine resident).

The change Migraciones brought in June last year makes it much harder for those who had hoped to complete the pensionista route to permanent (Migraciones) residency without coming to AFIP's attention. After the 12 months of their first temporary (Migraciones pensionista) residency, they become tax residents going forward, already have 12 months of traceable deposits in the financial system, and face another two years of that compulsory monthly depositing if their goal is permanent residency. A problem.

What an expat pensioner (either long since a permanent resident or currently at least 12 months into the temporary residency process en route to permanent residency) actually does about their tax liability is another matter. Each person has to make their own judgment about whether to ignore the problem or deal with it. Everybody's circumstances and risk profile (and risk appetite) will be different. This matter has been often discussed in threads on this board over the last four years. The best (probably only) way to make a judgment is to talk to a tax accountant here to understand what risk you may be running by not declaring your pension (and other) income (and assets in your home country) once you hit the 12-month mark in your residency process, or by suddenly starting to declare your income now a considerable time after having been liable to start doing so.

(People on US Social Security may have some kind of special exemption from all the above. In the various threads here on tax matters over the last four years, some have suggested this is the case, but no authoritative source has been presented.)

 

[Bajo_cero2]

That's just some chat. I'm looking for an authoritative source.

I say this because I know for a fact that Argentines (like my wife) who are retired and whose retirement income reaches the taxable income of a working person must pay taxes on their retirement income, and I know that because various times throughout the years, she has been above that level and has had to pay taxes on her retirement income. I've also read many articles in the newspapers over the years on this subject, but only as it relates to Argentines.

I think they put the rule about six (not eight) minimum jubilaciones (not salaries) in during the Macri years. It has been changed several times, and it may be eight now.

In any case, if retired Argentines have to pay taxes on their retirement income, I find it highly unlikely that foreigners would be exempt, but I've never been able to find the specific law about it, and I've never seen a definitive authoritative statement about this. Just hearsay as you've posted above.

I'm interested because once in a while, depending on the rules at the moment and the value of the dollar, my retirement income comes up to the level where I might have to pay taxes if I were a retired Argentine person. But it has never lasted more than a month or two, and it would never have been more than a couple dollars of tax, so I never investigated it with an accountant.

But if something like Milei's initial income tax proposal were to ever be accepted, I (and probably many others of us) would be well within the taxable range. And a number of us are surely in that range already. So it should be of interest to those of us who would like to be legal and above board and not have some future potential problem hanging over our heads.

Local retirement. That’s the key word.