Cost of dental braces in Argentina?

[Sockhopper]

Citygirl & "Lost in BA",

Due to the very thing that's hurting you while earning or starting with pesos, my husband and I had to stop in the middle of our preparations to fulfil a dream to retire in BA. We had to do a complete about-turn in February/March. We were supposed to be living in BA by May.

It almost takes courage on this forum to admit why. I'll probably be called a "K" supporter although politics had nothing to do with our personal decision. For 3 years we seriously considered moving there after visiting the city for 6 weeks a year since 2007. We have also kept up daily with news reports, this forum and TA since December on the news of each new financial and import control. In January, we began the relocating process, the plan being to apply for a 'pensionista' once we got to BA and to study Spanish there.

We discussed every new law and debate surrounding some. For the first while, it looked as though we could deal with a few controls that were being thrown at portenos. But like everyone, we were reduced to guessing at exactly what some of those controls might result in- how much worse would things get.

I started to get grumpy about the import controls first.

But the breaking point of our likelihood of coping with things there on a long-term basis was exactly what beleaguers your life although our circumstances differ from yours. What the "K" is doing is horrible but neither can we deal with our pensions from Canada arriving in our BA bank account converted at the official rate to pesos and then when we pay rent or buy things, needing 35% more pesos due to ‘blue’. I don't know who could unless one travels abroad lots and returns with $US cash. We didn't have the money to go and return often.

So, the dual conversion rates for pesos was the game changer for us. We're also note eligible to use "Xoom": we don't and can't have US-located bank accounts. Basically, only Americans have this facility that transfers foreign currency to them in BA in 'blue'.

Also, we didn't want the unreliable hassle and stress of using illegal money-changers to get the 'blue' rate so that we could offset things costing us 35% more than other expats who can access $US cash and so not pay that premium in pesos as we'd have to.

Regardless of Argentina's politics and the reasons for why 'blue' should be accepted, it would make me feel wrong and insecure to not live in a country where the value of its legal tender wasn't the same for everybody!

And we think that having a 'blue' will add to the already 30% inflation there. Eg. if the business next to mine hikes peso prices for people who have only pesos by 35% 'blue' so that it can then pay the 'blue' rate for $US cash in black and blue, why am I selling my goods cheaper than him? Surely I should increase my prices too. Otherwise, I'm losing out."

In grief over this change in our plans, we were lucky again because we identified somewhere else that can supply us at least some of the things we love about BA. Only due to what has happened in 2011/12, we are thrilled to be retiring in France - in 3 weeks - where "legal tender" operates to be what it says at one exchange rate only. We won't go though hell every month wondering how much our rent will be the next and wondering how we'll get it. So we'll feel free of that and so build a new life.

Regarding the price of dentistry, have either of you contacted dentists including Dr.Pelcman to explain WHY you each need to pay the official rate?

All the best to you both!

 

[Napoleon]

I'm doing the braces thing through the office of the Drs. Pettiti that I listed here:

LINK: http://baexpats.org/expat-life/21920-dentist-recommendation-2.html

...ALL PRICES WERE QUOTED IN PESOS!!

The office accepts insurance, but I don't have any, so I don't know much about it....

Thanks. So how much are you paying then?

I pay with pesos in efectivo, but if I had insurance, then I'd do it like the insured do it.

I've never done the full research on the insurance plans and so I've never gotten around to getting insurance. There are probably others here who have done (or should I say "not done"?) the same.

 

[LostinBA]

Citygirl & "Lost in BA",

Due to the very thing that's hurting you while earning or starting with pesos, my husband and I had to stop in the middle of our preparations to fulfil a dream to retire in BA. We had to do a complete about-turn in February/March. We were supposed to be living in BA by May.

It almost takes courage on this forum to admit why. I'll probably be called a "K" supporter although politics had nothing to do with our personal decision. For 3 years we seriously considered moving there after visiting the city for 6 weeks a year since 2007. We have also kept up daily with news reports, this forum and TA since December on the news of each new financial and import control. In January, we began the relocating process, the plan being to apply for a 'pensionista' once we got to BA and to study Spanish there.

We discussed every new law and debate surrounding some. For the first while, it looked as though we could deal with a few controls that were being thrown at portenos. But like everyone, we were reduced to guessing at exactly what some of those controls might result in- how much worse would things get.

I started to get grumpy about the import controls first.

But the breaking point of our likelihood of coping with things there on a long-term basis was exactly what beleaguers your life although our circumstances differ from yours. What the "K" is doing is horrible but neither can we deal with our pensions from Canada arriving in our BA bank account converted at the official rate to pesos and then when we pay rent or buy things, needing 35% more pesos due to ‘blue’. I don't know who could unless one travels abroad lots and returns with $US cash. We didn't have the money to go and return often.

So, the dual conversion rates for pesos was the game changer for us. We're also note eligible to use "Xoom": we don't and can't have US-located bank accounts. Basically, only Americans have this facility that transfers foreign currency to them in BA in 'blue'.

Also, we didn't want the unreliable hassle and stress of using illegal money-changers to get the 'blue' rate so that we could offset things costing us 35% more than other expats who can access $US cash and so not pay that premium in pesos as we'd have to.

Regardless of Argentina's politics and the reasons for why 'blue' should be accepted, it would make me feel wrong and insecure to not live in a country where the value of its legal tender wasn't the same for everybody!

I think you're missing the point. There is ONE exchange rate for everyone and it's what the market says it is, not what the government dictates it wants it to be. To not trade currencies according to the market rate is unethical, not the other way around.

And you CAN get the Xoom rate. There's nothing prohibiting Canadians from opening US bank accounts. The patriot act often makes it so that you have to appear in person due to the "know your customer" rules but this is simple procedure and likely be done without appearing in person, especially since all you would be receiving with be your Canadian pension ACH deposited into the account.

All you have to do is to sign W-8BEN showing the beneficial owner (you) are not subject to US taxes as a non-resident and bingo, you have your US account and then can use Xoom. There might be some currency exchange fees but you can look for a bank that has a deal on these for retirees receiving their Canadian pensions in the USA. There is an allowance for this under NAFTA especially with all the snowbirds spending 6 months or more of their year in the USA.

As for France, I think it's a better idea anyway...better cheese selection and the Euro is falling.

Good luck!

 

[fifs2]

I don't know of any professionals in any of the above mentioned who charge in dollars and then demand the exchange at a "blue"rate.


Very belatedly let me join this thread to say I was quoted in Bsas for services and products I received in July and was VERY surprised to see the place had charged me a very inflated blue rate TO MY FOREIGN CREDIT CARD. I felt dumb for not having verified the exchange rate at the time having presumed the official rate had ot be used for a foreign card..they hummed and haaed a little saying ALL their Bsas customers pay the blue rate even on foreign held cards..held my ground and got the charges reversed. Mine wasnt an idealogical argument like Sickhopper..a pure numbers game....and thank God my cautious bank had called me at the time to query the payments as they are very cuatious re Argentine transactions and it was their call that alerted me to the large difference.

 

[LostinBA]

I don't know of any professionals in any of the above mentioned who charge in dollars and then demand the exchange at a "blue"rate.


Very belatedly let me join this thread to say I was quoted in Bsas for services and products I received in July and was VERY surprised to see the place had charged me a very inflated blue rate TO MY FOREIGN CREDIT CARD. I felt dumb for not having verified the exchange rate at the time having presumed the official rate had ot be used for a foreign card..they hummed and haaed a little saying ALL their Bsas customers pay the blue rate even on foreign held cards..held my ground and got the charges reversed. Mine wasnt an idealogical argument like Sickhopper..a pure numbers game....and thank God my cautious bank had called me at the time to query the payments as they are very cuatious re Argentine transactions and it was their call that alerted me to the large difference.

Nothing about that surprises me. Glad you caught it. So what in effect they did was to attempt to STEAL from you because you're a "rich" foreigner. I take it that they quoted USD, charged your card for the blue rate so that they make, in effect, 30% more pesos when it's converted back to pesos in Argentina.

 

[Sockhopper]

I think you're missing the point. There is ONE exchange rate for everyone and it's what the market says it is, not what the government dictates it wants it to be. To not trade currencies according to the market rate is unethical, not the other way around.

And you CAN get the Xoom rate. There's nothing prohibiting Canadians from opening US bank accounts. The patriot act often makes it so that you have to appear in person due to the "know your customer" rules but this is simple procedure and likely be done without appearing in person, especially since all you would be receiving with be your Canadian pension ACH deposited into the account.

All you have to do is to sign W-8BEN showing the beneficial owner (you) are not subject to US taxes as a non-resident and bingo, you have your US account and then can use Xoom. There might be some currency exchange fees but you can look for a bank that has a deal on these for retirees receiving their Canadian pensions in the USA. There is an allowance for this under NAFTA especially with all the snowbirds spending 6 months or more of their year in the USA.

As for France, I think it's a better idea anyway...better cheese selection and the Euro is falling.

Good luck!

“Lost in BA”,

The Argentine government does not set the AR exchange rate although it does intervene in the market by buying pesos with $US to ‘improve’ the exchange rate.

If as you say “There is ONE exchange rate for everyone and it's what the market says” and that “to not trade currencies according to the market rate is unethical”, I don’t understand at all why you disapproved of and posted about a service in BA being quoted you in pesos at the ‘blue’ rate. "Everyone” includes yourself. Surely then, you'd support being charged the 'blue' peso price for a service since these arise directly from people buying pesos at what you now say is the ethical and market exchange rate.

I know of nothing in any countries’ constitutions that says which price is charged must accord with the supplier's or buyer's nationality, residency, civic, or professional status or affiliation or type of work or where his bank is. If this were about things in Prato, Florence or France in the 15th century, I could understand. But it isn't. Different set prices for different consumers is wrong.


Visitors to BA are certainly not all Canadian snowbirds with 6 month-long addresses per annum in Florida. Your argument is full of “might be’s”, “especially for”, ‘often can’s” and ‘can likely be done’s’. I don’t know the Canadian, US, and Argentine tax implications if what you think might work does. I’d need to pay a tax specialist to sort it all out. And even they do not know how some different combos of countries’ regulations will pan out.

And what about people who have and would need in BA their pensions from countries outside North America or from a mix of countries and currencies? Europeans are the second or third largest group of visitors to BA next to people from the USA. Some people spend longer periods in BA than most tourists but they’re not expats. Having to run a bank account in a country that one doesn’t step foot in or relate to, or to alternatively have to deal in ‘black’ just to avert financial discrimination against oneself in Argentina on account of an effectively two-tiered pricing system caused by illegal tender being pushed as the ethical exchange standard to use (!) is inordinate to the purpose of spending time and money even in a city as great as BA.

When I buy items or services in euro in say, Italy, I don’t pay a 35% premium just because I don’t have a Tunisian bank account for the reason that Italians in my analogy prefer to be paid in Tunisian currency rather than in their country’s legal tender and so set prices by that desire. How can Argentina attract or keep broad foreign interest and invite foreign currency injections indulging in this? When residents of any country come to mine, they pay exactly what I do and what I pay is not different from that paid by any other resident or visitor. We don’t make some visitors and expats pay less and others more. This is the applicable and fair standard of currency treatment to me wherever I am and with whomever I do business. To me, it's dreaming to try and buck this. That's simply not competitive.

I didn't settle on France due to its cheese but on account of having to jump too many hoops in BA. The luxury I see there is not having to do this there.

 

[Sockhopper]

If a Canadian goes to the US and opens a US-located bank account with any bank there, he will not be able later to sign-in online to do anything with that account online. He cannot even view his account online! To access that account online, you have to have a US social security number: that's a requirement. These are given only to legal US residents who in turn are subject to US taxation.

Getting a US bank account is only the first step. It doesn't practically work for a Canadian except when he's physically in the US each time that he uses that account. "Xoom" is clearly intended for US residents only because only they can instruct in person and online their US-located banks to transfer money to a third party.

 

[Greg2231]

If a Canadian goes to the US and opens a US-located bank account with any bank there, he will not be able later to sign-in online to do anything with that account online. He cannot even view his account online! To access that account online, you have to have a US social security number: that's a requirement. These are given only to legal US residents who in turn are subject to US taxation.

Getting a US bank account is only the first step. It doesn't practically work for a Canadian except when he's physically in the US each time that he uses that account. "Xoom" is clearly intended for US residents only because only they can instruct in person and online their US-located banks to transfer money to a third party.

There is no need to access your bank account online to use Xoom, everything is done on the Xoom site using either your account and routing number, or a Debit or Credit card.
The reality is you could get a US bank account if you wanted, and use Xoom, but maybe you are not willing to put up with the extra hassle, and yes Xoom is intended for people residing in the US, which may change as Xoom grows as a company, they do have the IPO coming up, and I would suspect they have international growth plans.

 

[Sockhopper]

There is no need to access your bank account online to use Xoom, everything is done on the Xoom site using either your account and routing number, or a Debit or Credit card.
The reality is you could get a US bank account if you wanted, and use Xoom, but maybe you are not willing to put up with the extra hassle, and yes Xoom is intended for people residing in the US, which may change as Xoom grows as a company, they do have the IPO coming up, and I would suspect they have international growth plans.

Greg, thank you but I keep an eye on my bank accounts and get online statements as I need them and have to see what bank charges are. I would never have a Canadian pension issuer deposit my pension directly into a foreign account that I can’t even view. I want to see the CAD to US exchange rate being used, for example. When I can't just walk into a bank nor see things online, I would not be able to know or control what's going on or how much is actually in that US account in $US or know what bank charges are accruing. I wouldn’t want to tell "Xoom" to transfer to me in BA a guessed-at sum because as a non-resident US account holder, I’m blindfolded and thereby not permitted to have a handle on my own finances!!

Also, I know 2 Canadians locally who were each born in the States but have lived here as Canadians since they were small children and raised their now adult kids here. What they’re being told to pay now in US taxes on their worldwide income is unbelievable and scary. I’d in no way want to have any relation with US tax authorities (as someone with resident status there has) when the only reason for having it would be to avert paying 35% more in Buenos Aires than Americans! That would be an insane trade-off as much as I love BA and its society. And I could find myself in a massive mess with Canadian tax authorities with its far more complex residency rules than people wrongly assume. The fact is that time away from Canada is just ONE factor used to determine whether someone is non-resident in Canada. And what about people who would be surviving in or visiting BA on pensions from more than one continent? That can easily be a minefield.

I see no reason for why I should have to ‘go American’ with my banking to enjoy equal treatment of my money in BA rather than be ‘penalized’ 35% there. The idea that I’d have to struggle in order to avert currency discrimination in BA is offensive. Even though the fact that the penchant for using $US as a standard in Argentina belongs with only 11% of Argentines (according to one of the BA papers) and was never meant in any way to snub foreign currencies that weren’t the US one.

I know nothing about economics but from all this, I can’t help but feel that the influence the $US carries in Argentina is distorting relationships between or among foreign currencies that visitors and expats have as their particular source currencies. And you have no idea of the complexities of time wasting and discouragement that comes from now being expected to jump hoops because you want to go to Argentina but are not American! This shouldn’t bug Argentina because Americans are still the main bringers of $US cash, assuming that Brazilians haven’t yet superseded the amount Americans bring in or sell in BA.

Argentines have told me that the fact that foreigners come is very healthy for Argentines because it lets them see other perspectives and so think more internationally, ie. feel more a part of the world. But in order for me to participate in this, my currency has to be treated like any other and not be ‘accidentally’ penalized. Cuevas, arbolitos, 35% more money needed is beyond all rationality to me. The $CAD has been close to or on par with the $US for a good 18 months and Canada’s banking system is regarded as the world’s best. I shouldn’t need to have to use “Xoom”.

I could not wait here in Canada another 2 years to see if Argentine problems settled down because I’m a retiree and need to learn and enjoy a new life now. Argentina is unlikely to see or care about disadvantages applicable to users of $CAD, $AU, euro etc. But despite this being an unintended consequence, it leaves me feeling like I’m a second-class visitor (or expat) there. One’s having to jump hoops to avoid that is ITSELF discriminatory and would create more problems and uncertainties as I've shown.

 

[Greg2231]

Well then be honest in your statements, before you said you couldn't use Xoom, and that there was no way for you to open a US bank account, neither of which is true, you have made a conscious decesion not to do either, both of which are availble to you.

As to tax implications of oppening a US account there need not be any for you, what you refer to with regard to your dual citizen friends is completley different, the USA taxes all its citizens on there world wide income regardless of there place of resdence, this would not affect you at all unless you were to gain US citizenship.

Also for better or worse the US Dollar is a world currency, and you will almost allways get a better exchange rate(smaller spread) when using US Dollars, and sometimes also Canadin dollars wont even be accepted, I will be in Myanmar next month which means I must bring US Dollars with me as there are no ATM's and I doubt they would accept Canadian Dollars.

Oh and by the way, I hope you know that with your long rants you come off sounding like a crazy person, whether you are or not isnt for me to judge.

Best of luck in France to you.