Do you fear a crash similar to 2001?

[pizzadreams]

Still what has this do with the economic situation of Argentina ? The people did not borrow 250 billion dollars but the current government did . Argentinians who travel abroad are 10 percent of the population not the majority who live very dignified lives and only spend on the necessary . Materialism is prevalent in most societies to different degrees but certainly Argentina cannot compare to the USA or Australia with their addictions to the latest gadgets and keeping up with the jones . Here in Argentina and especially in the provinces people with money are very low key and not ostentatious , Of course this is tied to the crime rates and the need to keep a low profile but for many expats it is a breath of fresh air that one is not judged by the clothes , car , or luxury address one haves in Argentina but judged on his character .

Completely disagree. In fact, I come from a Latin country and would say Latin American countries are disgustingly materialistic when given the chance. Hard to have as much access to gadgets when you earn so little too, so there's that. And many (most) Argentines who travel abroad don't earn much at all, yet they have expensive gadgets. Hell, I see people that would be considered to be living in a worse state than poverty in the US or Australia with phones that easily take up a whole monthly wage. I don't mean for you to take it personally at all, but I think you really do underestimate how crazy people here are with money. They don't spend more because they just can't afford to. Let's agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Idois]

And just because those two nations might be more materialistic it doesn't mean Argentines aren't

This may be interesting/curious:

A global trends online survey done in 2013 on a sample of 16000 in 20 countries looked at materialism by country by asking respondents to determine to which extent is owning something a measure of success (the participants were asked how much they agree that owning things is a measure of their success). The results, expressed in % (lower % = less materialistic; higher % = more materialistic), showed that 71% of respondents in China agree that owning things is a measure of their success, as do 58% in India. The global average is 46%. For reference, 7% of respondents from Sweden, 15% of respondents from Spain, 19% of respondents from the UK, 21% of respondents from the USA, 22% of respondents from Italy, 24% of the respondents from Australia, 29% of respondents from Argentina and 32% of respondents from Russia agree that owning things is a measure of their success. Based on the results form this survey, respondents from Argentina appear to be less materialistic than the average, less materialistic than respondents from China, India and Russia, but more so than the respondents from the USA, Australia, UK, Italy, Spain and Sweden.

Interestingly, the same survey also found that optimism about the country’s prospects is highest in India (53%), Canada (47%) and Australia (47%), while Spain (12%), Italy (10%) and France (9%) are the least optimistic. For comparison, 41% of the respondents from Argentina were optimistic about country's prospects.

Edited: link to the survey results for those interested can be found here.

 

[perry]

Completely disagree. In fact, I come from a Latin country and would say Latin American countries are disgustingly materialistic when given the chance. Hard to have as much access to gadgets when you earn so little too, so there's that. And many (most) Argentines who travel abroad don't earn much at all, yet they have expensive gadgets. Hell, I see people that would be considered to be living in a worse state than poverty in the US or Australia with phones that easily take up a whole monthly wage. I don't mean for you to take it personally at all, but I think you really do underestimate how crazy people here are with money. They don't spend more because they just can't afford to. Let's agree to disagree on this one.

I have lived here for 13 years and know Argentina from Tierra de Fuego to Missiones . The argentinian wealthy are amongst the richest people in the world and have very rich portfolios . They in the main keep a low profile and are not ostentatious like Russians, Chinese,or Arabs . Yes there are people who spend a lot of money in Argentina but this is a very small part of the population who earnt their monies illegally and have a lot of black monies. The average working class person from Neuquen , Rio Negro , Missiones etc etc live with the minimum and are not under a lot of pressure to have all the latest gadgets and trappings of a materialistic life .

I grew up in Australia and saw the terrible materialism of people there especially migrant communities and on a scale of 1 to 10 . Argentina would be 2 and Australia 10 . The means that most australians achieve this materialism is via credit not by cash and that is why they are have one of the highest personal debts in the world . Competiveness in these societies especially Asian and Australasian societies to be something that you are not creates tremendous unhappiness and that is the reason that Japan . Korea. Australia have much higher suicide rates than Argentina .

 

[pizzadreams]

This may be interesting/curious:

A global trends online survey done in 2013 on a sample of 16000 in 20 countries looked at materialism by country by asking respondents to determine to which extent is owning something a measure of success (the participants were asked how much they agree that owning things is a measure of their success). The results, expressed in % (lower % = less materialistic; higher % = more materialistic), showed that 71% of respondents in China agree that owning things is a measure of their success, as do 58% in India. The global average is 46%. For reference, 7% of respondents from Sweden, 15% of respondents from Spain, 19% of respondents from the UK, 21% of respondents from the USA, 22% of respondents from Italy, 24% of the respondents from Australia, 29% of respondents from Argentina and 32% of respondents from Russia agree that owning things is a measure of their success. Based on the results form this survey, respondents from Argentina appear to be less materialistic than the average, less materialistic than respondents from China, India and Russia, but more so than the respondents from the USA, Australia, UK, Italy, Spain and Sweden.

Interestingly, the same survey also found that optimism about the country’s prospects is highest in India (53%), Canada (47%) and Australia (47%), while Spain (12%), Italy (10%) and France (9%) are the least optimistic. For comparison, 41% of the respondents from Argentina were optimistic about country's prospects.

Edited: link to the survey results for those interested can be found here.

Pretty interesting. Pretty ironic considering the Chinese political ideology.

I have lived here for 13 years and know Argentina from Tierra de Fuego to Missiones . The argentinian wealthy are amongst the richest people in the world and have very rich portfolios . They in the main keep a low profile and are not ostentatious like Russians, Chinese,or Arabs . Yes there are people who spend a lot of money in Argentina but this is a very small part of the population who earnt their monies illegally and have a lot of black monies. The average working class person from Neuquen , Rio Negro , Missiones etc etc live with the minimum and are not under a lot of pressure to have all the latest gadgets and trappings of a materialistic life .

I grew up in Australia and saw the terrible materialism of people there especially migrant communities and on a scale of 1 to 10 . Argentina would be 2 and Australia 10 . The means that most australians achieve this materialism is via credit not by cash and that is why they are have one of the highest personal debts in the world . Competiveness in these societies especially Asian and Australasian societies to be something that you are not creates tremendous unhappiness and that is the reason that Japan . Korea. Australia have much higher suicide rates than Argentina .

Fair points, but don't you think the fact those middle class Argentines you mention don't have as high a level or purchasing power or access to goods or gadgets as the average Australian have something to do with what we're discussing? Also, happiness is extremely hard to explain. Uruguay has anything but a competitive culture and it has the highest rate of suicide in the Americas. There's not much of a correlation between happiness and competitiveness. In fact, competition plays a crucial role in the development of countries that consistently rank at the top of happiness reports.

 

[pizzadreams]

It all comes down to what I said, though. Would the average Argentine be the way you portray them if they had access to high credit and very high wages like Australians? I find it extremely hard to believe they would be

 

[pizzadreams]

Overall great thread, by the way

 

[perry]

Some Argentinians are very cash rich much more so than many Australians I know . Its very rare in Sydney to know people that own more than 10 properties but here I have met many people who have a large asset portfolio. Argentinian people in general are imho not flashy ( even though their reputation states this , and there are some very vulgar argentians think Maradona. Moira Casan etc etc )

Competiveness is one the main instigator for high suicide rates and for this reason Korea comes out nearly tops in most surveys . I did not know about Uruguay but I would hazard a guess that boredom could be one of the reasons there!
https://bpr.berkeley.edu/2017/10/31/the-scourge-of-south-korea-stress-and-suicide-in-korean-society/

 

[perry]

It all comes down to what I said, though. Would the average Argentine be the way you portray them if they had access to high credit and very high wages like Australians? I find it extremely hard to believe they would be

Australians are not angels as many people believe and the society is very materialistic and greedy .

When I was a young boy growing up in Sydney Australia is was a hidden paradise where with just one wage a whole family could be supported . People worked to live and enjoy life and weekends were sacred and ours were spent in public parks and beaches with families and friends enjoying barbeques and each others company .

Now all the cities of Australia have been decimated imho by rampant materialism where people work very long hours and saturdays . The cost of owning or renting an apartment is one of the highest in the world . Yes people earn well but the costs of living are very high. Australia by the way has terrible social problems having the worst gambling problems in the world and also the worst amphetamine problems worldwide due to drugs like crystal meth decimating communities . The government of Australia pretends to the world that it is democratic but then allows unfettered gambling access in major cities that have destroyed many families and has very soft laws on drug trafficing which is destroying the fabric of australian society .

As much as I can critisize Argentina and its current government I love many aspects of life here which are preferible to the USA or Australia ( either though its going downhill as well )

https://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/28/...ling-addiction-poker-slot-machines/index.html
http://time.com/4737800/meth-australia-ice-crystal-methamphetamine-methylamphetamine/

 

[pizzadreams]

Australians are not angels as many people believe and the society is very materialistic and greedy .

When I was a young boy growing up in Sydney Australia is was a hidden paradise where with just one wage a whole family could be supported . People worked to live and enjoy life and weekends were sacred and ours were spent in public parks and beaches with families and friends enjoying barbeques and each others company .

Now all the cities of Australia have been decimated imho by rampant materialism where people work very long hours and saturdays . The cost of owning or renting an apartment is one of the highest in the world . Yes people earn well but the costs of living are very high. Australia by the way has terrible social problems having the worst gambling problems in the world and also the worst amphetamine problems worldwide due to drugs like crystal meth decimating communities . The government of Australia pretends to the world that it is democratic but then allows unfettered gambling access in major cities that have destroyed many families and has very soft laws on drug trafficing which is destroying the fabric of australian society .

As much as I can critisize Argentina and its current government I love many aspects of life here which are preferible to the USA or Australia ( either though its going downhill as well )

https://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/28/...ling-addiction-poker-slot-machines/index.html
http://time.com/4737800/meth-australia-ice-crystal-methamphetamine-methylamphetamine/

It's good to hear from the perspective of someone that grew up there, but all the issues you mentioned are widespread in Argentina. Drug abuse? Gambling? Lack of democratic principles and dishonesty? Come on...

And, again, high cost of living. What things cost does not actually matter as much as what your purchasing power is. How long does the average aus have to work to purchase X compared to the average arg? I'm aware Australias minimum wage is somewhere around $17aud an hour. Argentina's is $3. Highly likely less than that. I don't mean to disagree with you for the sake of it, but Australias social problems are a joke next to the situation Argentina has been in for over 70 YEARS.

Have you ever or do you work for $600usd a month in Argentina or less? Are you aware of how miserable life is on an average wage here? Many Argentines work very long hours too, but for much less than Australians, and they certainly pay the same and more for goods in developed countries.

Im not denying your claim that life in AUS is not what it used to be, but there should be no comparison that if life was even half as good in Argentina for the average person as it is in AUS many would be moving here. And, honestly, no one really does long term.

 

[toongeorges]

7% of respondents from Sweden, 15% of respondents from Spain, 19% of respondents from the UK, 21% of respondents from the USA, 22% of respondents from Italy, 24% of the respondents from Australia, 29% of respondents from Argentina and 32% of respondents from Russia agree that owning things is a measure of their success. Based on the results form this survey, respondents from Argentina appear to be less materialistic than the average, less materialistic than respondents from China, India and Russia, but more so than the respondents from the USA, Australia, UK, Italy, Spain and Sweden.

That is a crap conclusion, all Europeans you mention, also the fuzzy Swedes are more materialistic than Argentines. In Europe people live in a rat race where they borrow a lot of money to buy a house, a car, holidays etc. so they can pay off their debt until they retire. Argentines spend what they have, before inflation devalues their money. Europeans spend what they have and more, they live on credit. Not as bad as in the US and China, but worse than in Argentina for sure. How much debt do Argentinian households have? The debt per household would probably be a better indicator of "materialism".

The indicator you refer to is a bad indicator for materialism, it may be a valid indicator for inequality though.

Italian women less materialistic than Argentinian women hahaha, you do not know the difference between them...